Are Bards any use ?

[Midget Gems]

What's worse than having a Bard in your party - answer - having two Bards in your party.

I took a party of magic users, including two Bards, through to the end of BG1 and on into TOTSC - just to see if they were any good at higher levels - but they are still rubbish. A true jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none. Without TOTSC installed you only get one weapon even though these guys can learn almost every skill.

Has anyone ever used the Bards Song - this has got to be the most useless feature in the game. What do you think, and is Garrick the worst NPC in the whole game ?

[SixOfSpades]

I peronally think Bards are pathetic, and as far as I know, everyone agrees with this opinion, at least as far as BG1 is concerned. In BG2, though, they stop being just dead weight, or at least that's what I'm told. Here's my opinion of Bards in BG1:

They're just like Fighters--except that;
They can't get the Strength or hitpoints that a Fighter can,
They can't wear heavy armor, helmets, or shields (except bucklers),
They can only put 1 star into a weapon,
They can't use Composite Long Bows,
And their THAC0 is worse.

They're just like Thieves--except that;
They can't Stealth,
They can't Find Traps,
They can't Pick Locks,
And they can't Backstab.

They're just like Mages--except that;
Their spell progression is worse,
And they can't wear Mage Robes, the Ring of Wizardry, etc.
(So they have to be buck naked in battle if they want to cast anything!)

They can't be Elves, and they can't Multi- or Dual- Class.

On, the plus side, however, they do have the following bonuses:
Very rapid level gain,
Bard Song,
and High Lore.

Whooop dee dooo.


(This was the "negative" post. In about an hour, I'll send the "fair" post, comparing a Bard to my Elven Mage/Thief.)

[SixOfSpades]

To cast Bards in a fairer light, let's compare one with the class that I think they are most like, the Mage/Thief.
The best Bard I've rolled: Half-Elf, 13/18/16/18/10/18
The best Mage/Thief: Elf, 12/19/16/18/18/8

The Bard gets the Books of INT and CHA, Chainmail+2 (I'll assume he didn't kill Drizzt), Longbow of Marksmanship, Scimtar+2, Necklace of Missiles, Ring of Animal Friendship, Ring of Fire Resistance, Nymph Cloak, and the Boots of the North.

The Mage/Thief gets the Book of INT, Archmagi Robe, Eagle Bow, Dagger of Venom, Amulet of Metaspell Influence, Ring of Wizardry, Ring of Protection+2, Algernon's Cloak, and the Boots of Stealth.

At the EXP cap for ToSC:
_____________________________Bard_______Mage/Thief
Level:________________________10___________7/8
Hitpoints:____________________66____________45
THAC0 (bow, normal arrows)_____9_____________9
Armor Class:__________________-1____________-1
Pick Pockets:________________105%__________100%
Pick Locks:____________________0%__________100%
Find Traps:____________________0%___________15%
Stealth:_______________________0%__________100%
Backstab Multiplier:_________N/A____________x3
Lore:________________________110____________46
Level 1 Spells:________________3_____________8
Level 2:_______________________3_____________4
Level 3:_______________________2_____________2
Level 4:_______________________1_____________1

Saving Throws for Bard:_____11/10/10/14/11
Saving Throws, Mage/Thief:___9/ 6/ 8/10/ 7

It's up to you to decide having more hitpoints, Lore, Bard Song, and the ability to melee once in a while is worth giving up the other Thieving abilities, more spells, and better Saving Throws.

[SixOfSpades]

As far as Garrick being the worst NPC, I'm gonna have to opt for Tiax, instead. As a Cleric/Thief, he's got 16 DEX, the lowest Dexerity of the Thief set, and who needs a Cleric with only 13 WIS? Not only that, but his 9 STR gives him a weight allowance of 50 pounds--so he can lift a suit of Plate armor and that's it.

Compared with Osprey, though, Tiax is a god. She's one of the Illusions characters in Candlekeep, and she's a Cleric/Mage. Check out her stats:
STR: 16
DEX: 9
CON: 13
INT: 15
WIS: 10
CHA: 6

Ouch!

P.S. Bards can actually be pretty handy at times, if they aren't in your party. Want to help your odds against Silke? Have Algernon's Cloak. (I swear, I find a new, interesting use for this thing every time I play!) Charm Garrick and have him do Bard Song for you while you fight! Nothing like some great tunes to go with my butt-whoopin'.

[dex_man]

Six if i can add something to wat you said when comparing bards, you mentioned chainmail +2 wat about if you have ToTSC installed then you can get Chainmail +3 the standered for underground dwarven fighters if i remember right

[norompanlasolas]

Very good postings Six. And I agree that in BG1 Bards kind of suck. But in BG2 they are much better, and even more if you pick a kit.

[Lord Brass]

Only in IceWind Dale is the Bard truly a monster at high levels equal to his/her compatriots. (Come to think of it, they're redundant really after level 11.) WarChant of the Sith anyone?

[Avatar]

BARDS are useless in BG1
almost useless in BG2
less useless in ToB

[SixOfSpades]

There's Chain+3? Okay, so he can reach an AC of -2....but he's still gotta take it off to cast anything. Thank god they rectified this problem in BG2--you FINALLY can get some Elven Chainmail (Which Mages can wear as well!), and if memory serves, there's Elven Chainmail+2, as well.

[ronan]

so far what I have gathered is that the rest of the party have to carry around a dead weight until you hit around about lvl20 at which point a bard becomes slightly useful but not that good. Not much of a selling point for bards methinks.