The Shield, 24, and Philosophy

[Azred]

<font color = lightgreen>I have recently begun watching The Shield, a down-and-dirty cop drama which managed to win an Emmy or two. As I watch the episodes, I have noticed that the main character Nick is a lot like Jack Bauer from 24--both are pursuing the ideals of Justice but the way they get there is...less than ideal. In the episode I watched tonight, Nick beats up a prostitute for whom he has some sense of duty (maybe he knew her, used to date her, or something) so that her cover story as to why she killed a client will seem true, thus she won't go to prison and lose her son. Jack, as watchers of 24 know, can--and does--resort to torture as a means of pursuing his goals.

These two characters pose a question: should those who pursue an ideal such as Justice and The Law break those ideals in order to secure them for others? That is, should someone designated to uphold the law be allowed to break the law if it serves a greater good?
Take this a step further. Is breaking the boundaries of an ideal in order to secure that ideal something that must be done? Watch Robocop and Robocop 2 again. Not until Robocop breaks his programming is he able to fully execute his program. In this instance, it appears as if sometimes the rule "uphold the law" prevents him from upholding the law.

Let me attempt to summarize the question differently. In order to preserve the rules of a system, should someone be allowed to break the rules of the system? Must the person be required to break the rules of the system in order to preserve it?

Read Stephen R. Donaldson's Gap Cycle. In those five books, Angus Thermopyle cannot help Warden Dios save humanity until he is given absolute freedom to do anything he pleases, no matter how brutal or inhuman.

Finally, if you are designing a system based on a set of rules or ideals and you don't allow for breaking those rules/ideals, is your system doomed to fail?

Just some questions to ponder.</font>

[Gabrielles blades]

theres always exemptions from rules
cops are 'allowed' to break the law in order to catch criminals
for example, a guy is speeding, cop is allowed to speed in order to catch the criminal

as for the situations pointed out....justice is blind i think they say
So, a system of strict ideals with no exceptions is as much a horror to behold as the current system of less than strict rules; after all, each one would have its own problems of true justice being performed or not.

[Maelakin]

Simple questions really.

If you build a system that encompasses those with free will, the laws of the system will be broken. In addition, if you follow the rules of the system, you cannot win against those who break the rules. For a very simple illustration:

You draw a line and no one is allowed to cross the line in the context of the system you created. If someone crosses the line and chooses not to re-cross the line, how do you enforce your rule? And, is a rule really a rule if it is not enforced? If it is not enforced, does it not become a simple guideline?

So there you go, answering your questions with questions. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Poison Dart Frog]

Great discussion topic!

I'll reference a different episode of "The Shield" to back that up. Theres an episode where this pervert has kidnapped a little girl and has her locked away in an unknown location. He won't admit that he has her, but they KNOW he does. To make matters worse, they have to get to her in a hurry or she will die, they know this as well. The Captain, determined to do things the legal way, tries to coerce the information out of the suspect with no success. Finally, as a last ditch effort, they send Nick in to try to get the information anyway possible. I think he pretty much beats it out of the guy but he finally does get the location and they save the girl just in time. You'd have to see the episode to really appreciate how intimidating he can be. It's a really great episode.

In the example above, stepping outside the law was the only way to save an innocent life. The problem with the whole thing is that when you allow someone to step outside the law, you have to trust that they will not abuse it. Another good movie to watch is "Training Day" starring Denzel Washington. This movie will show what happens when someone abuses that power.

Finally, if you are designing a system based on a set of rules or ideals and you don't allow for breaking those rules/ideals, is your system doomed to fail?

If the arguments to those rules are subject to change, then yes, the system will fail. A static system in a dynamic enviroment will not succeed.