Looking for thoughts and input: MP3Panda

[Bungleau]

For those unaware, MP3Panda is a music service, somewhat similar to itunes with a major difference: price. As in songs around a nickel, and albums for a buck. Far less than the iTunes .99 and 9.99 typical price points. The company is based in Russia and claims to be legal within Russian copyright laws.

Some of my kids friends (and their parents) are using this service, very pleased with how cheaply they can acquire music.

I'm as cheap as the next guy, but I'm not so sure. Theoretically, this is completely legal (it *is* legal! Trust us... we wouldn't lie to you ), but I'm having a hard time wrapping my belief and trust around the economic effects.

As Yorick has shared in the past, an artist on iTunes may get 17% or so of the amount that itunes charges... the rest goes somewhere else (iTunes, labels, etc.). Doing the math, a million-selling single would net the artist around $8,500... not quite peanuts, but damn close to it. Put another way, the artist receives 0.85 cents for every copy sold. Not exactly motivation to make another one.

And for those who may not recall, I have some personal perspective on this as well. I've written several technical books, and I have seen illegal copies of one of my books. My books are technical and won't be the next Harry Potter, paying for my summer island vacation spot. However, I spent time preparing and writing them, and they do occasionally pay for a dinner out. Stealing copyrighted material is *not* a victimless crime, as some people think.

So.... my question. Is anyone familiar with MP3 Panda? Is it legal? Is it legal in the US and other places outside of Russia? Or is it another muzik (as in warez) site? Or something else?

All thoughts and input are appreciated.

[SpiritWarrior]

A quick search revealed this, although it is merely a wiki-answer.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_mp3pand...w_does_it_work

I'd go with iTunes or Rhapsody, personally.

[Bungleau]

Thanks, SW. I did do a bunch of searching myself, and found that the positions fell into two camps:

1. Yes, it's legal... it complies with (Russian) copyright laws, and the artists and labels do get paid for their music. Besides, they *say* that it's legal on the web site. And if it were illegal, it would be shut down, wouldn't it?
2. It may be legal in Russia, but unless you're *in* Russia, it's still illegal. And even there, it may not be legal

IOW, I found no convincing proof that stated that it was legal, and while I found sites like the one you linked that stated that it was illegal, I found nothing that addressed / debunked both at the same time.

My own inclination is to avoid it. In discussions with my children, however, I need to present my reasons in a well-thought-out manner because you *know* this will come up in conversation with their friends... somewhere...

Friend: I love this song! I just downloaded it yesterday from MP3Panda! Son: We don't use MP3Panda. It's illegal Friend: No, it's legal. My dad says so. Son: My dad says it isn't Friend: Well, my dad's smarter than your dad... Son: My dad can beat up your dad...

And things just get messy from there...

[SpiritWarrior]

Well, chances are your kids dad is indeed smarter as most parents won't know what MP3 panda is, nevermind an MP3. Personally, if I was a stickler about the grey areas of the law I would avoid it. If I was not, then I would go ahead and use it. You would not be in any trouble as you did your due research, and were essentially scammed into believing this thing is legal in the USA. If it is not legal, it will simply be legally asked to cease and desist and/or be shut down. The same way foreign torrent sites are. It's up to you. It's not like you knowingly are breaking the murky international laws of copywright. However, you do know that as they stand atm, they are murky. Maybe it's best avoided. See, if an American company took hold of it the rest would be gravy but until then it remains somewhat uncertain.

[Micah Foehammer]

My understanding of this is as follows:

1) The Russian Federation is a signatory to the Berne Convention
2) According to the terms of that agreement, Russian copyright law only takes precedence if the copyrighted work originates in Russia. i.e. the author (or songwriter) is a citizen of the Russian Federation
3) According to Article 5, section 2, works originating outside any signatory to the convention are protected EXCUSIVELY by the copyright laws of the county they originate in, including the means to redress any copyright violation.

It seems to me that unless the site in question has an agreement with each of the songwriters in question that offering those songs for download is a violation of the author's copyright regardless of what the site may claim.

The convention terms can be found here:

http://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/ip/b...tml#P119_19081

Originally Posted by SpiritWarrior You would not be in any trouble as you did your due research, and were essentially scammed into believing this thing is legal in the USA. If it is not legal, it will simply be legally asked to cease and desist and/or be shut down. The same way foreign torrent sites are. It's up to you. It's not like you knowingly are breaking the murky international laws of copywright.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

I have to admit that I do wonder how sites like this manage to stay up and running. I would have thought that lawyers would be ALL over these file sharing sites.

[SpiritWarrior]

Originally Posted by Micah Foehammer My understanding of this is as follows: 1) The Russian Federation is a signatory to the Berne Convention 2) According to the terms of that agreement, Russian copyright law only takes precedence if the copyrighted work originates in Russia. i.e. the author (or songwriter) is a citizen of the Russian Federation 3) According to Article 5, section 2, works originating outside any signatory to the convention are protected EXCUSIVELY by the copyright laws of the county they originate in, including the means to redress any copyright violation. It seems to me that unless the site in question has an agreement with each of the songwriters in question that offering those songs for download is a violation of the author's copyright regardless of what the site may claim. The convention terms can be found here: http://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/ip/b...tml#P119_19081 Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Yes, it is an excuse. See Napster and the millions who downloaded songs from it back in the day and got away with it. Some were eventually "made an example of" but this was long after a public media campaign was released, informing people that this new internet thingy in fact, violates copywright. So those lawbreakers were given time, and facts, and presented with a show of the books. Even then, some people continued to use it and so a some cases were filed, and some examples were made.

[Bungleau]

Thanks for the input, Micah. The more I'm finding out, the more it looks like this site will simply hold on until it's shut down... at which point it will return in some other form, doing the same thing.