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NobleNick · 09-16-2005, 05:22 PM

krunchyfrogg,

I agree with most of what has already been posted in reply; but notice that you did not get a direct answer to your question.

Having completed IWD and HoW (on Normal), and being close to finishing ToTLM, I feel I have learned some valuable lessons. Implementing those lessons --> My next powergaming party destined for IWD/HoW/TotLM would probably look something like the below; which I now offer up as what I consider to be an excellent attempt to answer your question:

--------------------------------------------------------------

1.) DC Fighter[13]/Neutral_Cleric (***** Mace, *** Sling)
2.) DC Fighter[13]/Druid (***** Scimitar, *** Sling)
3a.) Gnome Thief
3b.) DC Fighter[9]/Illusionist (**** Axe, ***LongBow)
4.) DC Good_Cleric[12]/Ranger (** Flail, ** Sling)
5.) DC Fighter[12]/Thief (***** LongSword, *** LongBow)
6.) H-Elf Bard (* whatever, * crossbow: )

--------------------------------------------------------------

You have already noticed a small problem: That there are 7 characters listed, and a party can only have 6. I will explain, in turn.

First off, 5 of 6 characters (not including 3a.) are melee artists. 4 of the 6 are at least LVL 12 in a Warrior class in the late game, and 3 of those sport 5 stars in their melee weapon. This is a very "in-your-face" physical party of very tough, high-HP hombres; and that is a very good thing. You want as many heavy hitters as you can get, to leverage the advantage that the Bard will give you.

Characters 1 and 4 cover your Cleric needs with 1 Cleric in the early and mid game and 2 in the late game (and you will be very needy in HoW/TotLM). May need to hold off DC of character 4 until after first tough area in HoW.

Characters 2 and 4 give you gobs of Druid spells in the late game. (The extra weapon proficiency point gained by going F[13]/D, as opposed to F[9]/D, is not as important as the extra 4 THAC0 plus the extra 1/2 ApR: The Druid gets to benefit from these latter 2 even when shapeshifted.) Pick Scimitar for close in weapon for the F/D, to reduce party's Priest-heavy dependency on crushing weapons. The C/R will have lots of low level slots from the Cleric that can eventually be crammed with the Ranger's Druid spells.

In addition to a smattering of curative spells, the Clerics can also load up about 4 to 5 deep on "Recitation" and "Prayer." In tough fights: one Cleric casts Prayer and the other casts Recitation. These spells stack with each other -AND- with the War Chant. This gives ALL your DC warriors FAR BETTER stats than a minimally buffed Paladin, making characters 1 thru 5 appear to the enemy as "Tanks of Slaying." The Cleric pair can alternate spells, and so perform this spectacular spell stacking feat TEN or more times between rests! Also, both Clerics can "raise dead;" so the party can always restore itself unless both of these very tough guys go down.

Character 6 (Bard) will make an O.K. stand-in Mage for the early game; but her main reason for existence is to turbo charge the other 5 beefy party members you have. When the Bard hits clvl 11, tune her to "War Chant of the Sith," crank the volume and break off the knob! If my Bard EVER uses her excellent weapons, it is because the party is in very deep kimshee, indeed. War Chant is just so powerful that I keep my Bard singing if even one of my warriors is still in his right mind and swinging a weapon. The Bard also makes it very easy to enter every fight with every party member at 100% health, without sleeping.

Pinch your pennies and make the "Bardic Horn of Valhalla" one of your first purchases [if not THE first major purchase]. This is one of the finest pieces of equipment your party will ever own. If you can acquire it before DE, it will make your travels there so-o-o much easier: Berserkers ROCK in the early to mid-game, lose a little umph in late IWD [but are always useful to some extent], and regain some steam in HoW and TotLM.)

This brings us to Characters 3a, 3b, and 5.

DC Illusionist (3b.) is not quite a "Battle Mage," but sports most of the virtues of a veteran Fighter and full Mage. Maxed out in bow and 4 star proficiency in melee. Heh, heh, heh: enemies jumping past the front lines to seek out soft spell casters are in for a very rude surprise.

Character 5 needs to go to at least CLVL 12 before the DC. I know, because my DC F(9)/T spends most of her time in TotLM running away from enemies, while the other DC Fighters do the fighting.

I would be nice to just go with 3b and 5; but this leaves you without a Thief for virtually the entire IWD game. Ouch! No trap find/disarm, no scout, no fun! So the plan is to make a disposable character (3a) to get you through the early game. Discard the straight Thief at about level 9/10 and add the newly rolled (3b) DC Fighter[9]/Illusionist. Your Fighter/Illusionist will START over 9 levels behind the rest of the group; but it is amazing how fast she will catch up. She should be ready to DC well before you hit HoW. Discarding the Thief at CLVL 9 leaves your party Thiefless for a short while, until character 5 DCs; but by this time your Bard and Cleric will have matured enough to carry the party through trap mishaps.

The 9+ Thief levels worth of expo that the party loses on a character using this technique (about 150K) seems like a lot in the early game, but it is really a pittance: Even on normal difficulty, this is about 3% of your eventual total. (You can get this much per character in a little over an hour of camping in the right spot in TotLM.) The only thing that should keep one from taking an "expendable" character is if they can't justify it from a roleplay perspective. Yes, although the plan above is quite viable for a power gamer doing the entire game and expansions; it could be a bit tough for some to stomach from a roleplay perspective. For the those who desire, there is another option:

A "softer" way of doing this is to create the original 6-person party (including 3b). Party without the Thief (3a), until you need her, then return to Kuldahar and exchange characters for as long as the Thief is needed. This wastes less expo on the Thief (whom you will eventually not need) and is more palatable from a roleplay perspective (hiring "expert" help when you need it, while a core party member recuperates in town).

All characters (with possible exception of DC F/D) get natural STR = DEX = CON = 18, and other prime reqs maxed for characters to which they will DC. This means that all DC characters (except Druid) are rolled in the mid-80's. The Fighter/Druid will be the toughest, needing a total roll of at least 90. Even then, STR might have to be sacrificed to max DEX (most important) and CON. Study the requirements closely, so as to not be rudely surprised at the DC, or disappointed in your build later on.

If I were sacrifice enjoyment in the early to mid game in order to have the strongest end-game party practical (on normal dificulty, and no Heart of Fury), I would let ALL the DC characters go to CLVL 13 before DC. Might have to camp a bit to make it work.

If I gave in just slightly to roleplaying considerations, an alternate party make-up would have me taking character 4 to Cleric[13] before the DC, and trading in Characters 1.) and 3b.) as follows:

1.) Paladin (**LongSword, **LongBow)
3b.) MC Gnome Cleric/Illusionist

This gives the party variety but is a weaker build in my eyes.

Hope you found this interesting and not too long of a read.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!

[ 09-17-2005, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

09-16-2005, 05:22 PM	#4
NobleNick Quintesson Join Date: February 5, 2002 Location: Huntsville, AL, USA Age: 63 Posts: 1,045	krunchyfrogg, I agree with most of what has already been posted in reply; but notice that you did not get a direct answer to your question. Having completed IWD and HoW (on Normal), and being close to finishing ToTLM, I feel I have learned some valuable lessons. Implementing those lessons --> My next powergaming party destined for IWD/HoW/TotLM would probably look something like the below; which I now offer up as what I consider to be an excellent attempt to answer your question: -------------------------------------------------------------- 1.) DC Fighter[13]/Neutral_Cleric (*** Mace, * Sling) 2.) DC Fighter[13]/Druid (*** Scimitar, * Sling) 3a.) Gnome Thief 3b.) DC Fighter[9]/Illusionist (** Axe, LongBow) 4.) DC Good_Cleric[12]/Ranger (* Flail, Sling) 5.) DC Fighter[12]/Thief (* LongSword, * LongBow) 6.) H-Elf Bard (* whatever, * crossbow: ) -------------------------------------------------------------- You have already noticed a small problem: That there are 7 characters listed, and a party can only have 6. I will explain, in turn. First off, 5 of 6 characters (not including 3a.) are melee artists. 4 of the 6 are at least LVL 12 in a Warrior class in the late game, and 3 of those sport 5 stars in their melee weapon. This is a very "in-your-face" physical party of very tough, high-HP hombres; and that is a very good thing. You want as many heavy hitters as you can get, to leverage the advantage that the Bard will give you. Characters 1 and 4 cover your Cleric needs with 1 Cleric in the early and mid game and 2 in the late game (and you will be very needy in HoW/TotLM). May need to hold off DC of character 4 until after first tough area in HoW. Characters 2 and 4 give you gobs of Druid spells in the late game. (The extra weapon proficiency point gained by going F[13]/D, as opposed to F[9]/D, is not as important as the extra 4 THAC0 plus the extra 1/2 ApR: The Druid gets to benefit from these latter 2 even when shapeshifted.) Pick Scimitar for close in weapon for the F/D, to reduce party's Priest-heavy dependency on crushing weapons. The C/R will have lots of low level slots from the Cleric that can eventually be crammed with the Ranger's Druid spells. In addition to a smattering of curative spells, the Clerics can also load up about 4 to 5 deep on "Recitation" and "Prayer." In tough fights: one Cleric casts Prayer and the other casts Recitation. These spells stack with each other -AND- with the War Chant. This gives ALL your DC warriors FAR BETTER stats than a minimally buffed Paladin, making characters 1 thru 5 appear to the enemy as "Tanks of Slaying." The Cleric pair can alternate spells, and so perform this spectacular spell stacking feat TEN or more times between rests! Also, both Clerics can "raise dead;" so the party can always restore itself unless both of these very tough guys go down. Character 6 (Bard) will make an O.K. stand-in Mage for the early game; but her main reason for existence is to turbo charge the other 5 beefy party members you have. When the Bard hits clvl 11, tune her to "War Chant of the Sith," crank the volume and break off the knob! If my Bard EVER uses her excellent weapons, it is because the party is in very deep kimshee, indeed. War Chant is just so powerful that I keep my Bard singing if even one of my warriors is still in his right mind and swinging a weapon. The Bard also makes it very easy to enter every fight with every party member at 100% health, without sleeping. Pinch your pennies and make the "Bardic Horn of Valhalla" one of your first purchases [if not THE first major purchase]. This is one of the finest pieces of equipment your party will ever own. If you can acquire it before DE, it will make your travels there so-o-o much easier: Berserkers ROCK in the early to mid-game, lose a little umph in late IWD [but are always useful to some extent], and regain some steam in HoW and TotLM.) This brings us to Characters 3a, 3b, and 5. DC Illusionist (3b.) is not quite a "Battle Mage," but sports most of the virtues of a veteran Fighter and full Mage. Maxed out in bow and 4 star proficiency in melee. Heh, heh, heh: enemies jumping past the front lines to seek out soft spell casters are in for a very rude surprise. Character 5 needs to go to at least CLVL 12 before the DC. I know, because my DC F(9)/T spends most of her time in TotLM running away from enemies, while the other DC Fighters do the fighting. I would be nice to just go with 3b and 5; but this leaves you without a Thief for virtually the entire IWD game. Ouch! No trap find/disarm, no scout, no fun! So the plan is to make a disposable character (3a) to get you through the early game. Discard the straight Thief at about level 9/10 and add the newly rolled (3b) DC Fighter[9]/Illusionist. Your Fighter/Illusionist will START over 9 levels behind the rest of the group; but it is amazing how fast she will catch up. She should be ready to DC well before you hit HoW. Discarding the Thief at CLVL 9 leaves your party Thiefless for a short while, until character 5 DCs; but by this time your Bard and Cleric will have matured enough to carry the party through trap mishaps. The 9+ Thief levels worth of expo that the party loses on a character using this technique (about 150K) seems like a lot in the early game, but it is really a pittance: Even on normal difficulty, this is about 3% of your eventual total. (You can get this much per character in a little over an hour of camping in the right spot in TotLM.) The only thing that should keep one from taking an "expendable" character is if they can't justify it from a roleplay perspective. Yes, although the plan above is quite viable for a power gamer doing the entire game and expansions; it could be a bit tough for some to stomach from a roleplay perspective. For the those who desire, there is another option: A "softer" way of doing this is to create the original 6-person party (including 3b). Party without the Thief (3a), until you need her, then return to Kuldahar and exchange characters for as long as the Thief is needed. This wastes less expo on the Thief (whom you will eventually not need) and is more palatable from a roleplay perspective (hiring "expert" help when you need it, while a core party member recuperates in town). All characters (with possible exception of DC F/D) get natural STR = DEX = CON = 18, and other prime reqs maxed for characters to which they will DC. This means that all DC characters (except Druid) are rolled in the mid-80's. The Fighter/Druid will be the toughest, needing a total roll of at least 90. Even then, STR might have to be sacrificed to max DEX (most important) and CON. Study the requirements closely, so as to not be rudely surprised at the DC, or disappointed in your build later on. If I were sacrifice enjoyment in the early to mid game in order to have the strongest end-game party practical (on normal dificulty, and no Heart of Fury), I would let ALL the DC characters go to CLVL 13 before DC. Might have to camp a bit to make it work. If I gave in just slightly to roleplaying considerations, an alternate party make-up would have me taking character 4 to Cleric[13] before the DC, and trading in Characters 1.) and 3b.) as follows: 1.) Paladin (LongSword, LongBow) 3b.) MC Gnome Cleric/Illusionist This gives the party variety but is a weaker build in my eyes. Hope you found this interesting and not too long of a read. -------------------- What's a party, without a song? Bards ROCK! Party On!! [ 09-17-2005, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]