[Cerek the Barbaric]

Some very good points on both sides so far. And I find myself - surprisingly - right in the middle of both views.

Yorick - I'm not sure that I agree with your assertion about morals being strictly "spiritual-based" (or influenced). As I mentioned earlier, I have some very good friends that are very devout atheists...but they follow a very similar moral code as I do. Two of them were raised in "Christian" homes and spent their childhood going to church, but eventually rejected what they heard as making no sense to them...yet they are still good, moral men. I think it also has a lot to do with following the "Rules of Society". We have laws to protect the members of society and there are consequences for breaking those rules. Likewise, many similar "family/social heirarchies" can be found in nature. Elephants are the first animals that come to mind. Female cows help look after all the young, not just their own. The younger, stronger bulls form the first line of defense between the herd and a predator, and if one of thier number are attacked, the bulls will often risk injury to themselves to save the member being attacked. Granted, it doesn't happen everytime....but the same is true for humans. How often do WE help a fellow "member" when they're attacked?? Sometimes, but not always.

There are other examples. Wolves, gorillas, even ants have a highly structured society with each member knowing their role and performing it for the good of the entire pack/herd/colony. We are not the only species that thinks past it's immediate needs.....at least in my opinion.

Spelca - You are correct that you don't have to have religion to have a strong moral character...nor does having a religion automatically grant you one. Falwell and Robertson turned this nation's greatest tragedy into a soapbox to attack every single group THEY consider to be "degenerate". It was a vicious and cruel slap in the face to a nation that had just been "suckerpunched" by yet another group of "religious fanatics". Eric Robert Rudolph bombed an abortion clinic in Alabama, killing a security guard and maiming a nurse...again, in the name of his religious beliefs. The 10 Commandments are a good road map, but they are just the foundation on which the rest of God's Moral Structure is built. Jesus came to give us a real-life example of how God expects us to act. His examples of love, tolerance, and forgiveness in the face of persecution are shining examples of the goal God wants us to strive for in our daily actions.

Charean - Good to see you, my friend. Yes, God DOES tell us "not to worship idols" (2nd Commandment). What many fail to realize that "idols" are more than just golden calves or pagan images. It can be money, your job, a new car, that beautiful boat at the local marina....anything that becomes MORE important than God to His followers. God expects to be number 1 in the hearts of his worshippers. Anything else that takes priority is considered "idolatry". I'd be happy to answer any other questions you have...but you might want to do a PM or e-mail so that we don't "overload" the board with Religious threads again.