Quote:
Originally posted by caleb:
Yorick how do you know that commited christians are not leaving the church? You cant possibly back that up....granted I cant prove they ARE either but what are ya gonna do huh  Oh and most christians ARE born christians since alot of them are being baptised as babys or 8 year old kids and dont have a say in the matter. When a religion is imposed on people then you are going to see massive defection to another religion.
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Not all Christians believe in infant baptism, but those that do, believe that this 'covers' children until they are of the age where they can decide for themselves.
So a child that is baptised, yet never knows the grace of Jesus for themself is not what you'd consider a commited Christian.
I've noticed that in America particularly, but also in the west, there are many people who THINK they have checked out Christianity. We live in cultures influenced by Judeo-Christian principles, so the difference between Christ and no Christ is sometimes harder to see.
In somewhere like Singapore for example, where the majority (52%) are a merger of Buddhism/Taoism and Confucianism, the effect of Christ in an individual can be profound. Kids get kicked out of home for converting. Beaten. Yet after their lives drastically improve (productivity, demeanor, motivation, happiness) their parent check it out. City Harvest Church is filled with stories like that.
Following Christ is not like any other religion. There are no rituals to follow, there is no atonement or counterbalancing one needs to perform. Perfection is not desired nor aimed for. There is an acceptance of self, flaws and all, as being made, loved and forgiven by God, as we are.
Caleb, you brought up the question of Christians leaving the church.
Christians ARE the church. There is a school of thought that once someone invites Christ in their life, nothing can remove salvation. Nothing. People can, and do get fed up with traditional ways of meeting together, but there are many alternatives.
I went to a church where there was no regular preacher. Full of artists and countercultural people, dissention with whoever was speaking was encouraged. Members would speak themselves. Guests would speak. Truth was sought.
When a commited Christian leaves A church, they generally find another, even years later.
What K.T. is talking about, is people who are not even on the outskirts of knowing Jesus. I've spoken to many in such scenarios, and Churches get full every Christmas Day with "Christians?" who never set foot in the door any other day of the year.
What's that all about? What like, making sure you get that one service in each year, keeps your hand in the faith?
Jesus said he prefers someone to be hot or cold. "Lukewarm" people he'd prefer to spit out of his mouth.
[ 05-23-2002, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]