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Originally posted by MagiK:
Nice sentiments, but all I see here is an idealistic unrealistic view of the human animal. It isn't the western culture that turns the middle eastern despots into despots. If it were all western countries would be just the same as Syria, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan and others. The fact of the matter is, and as unappealing as it may be to you, there are EVIL people in the world and they do not value human life. It isn't the western powers who have MADE these people what they are. They are what they are because they are evil and no amount of reasoned talking, no amount of rational discourse will change it. If you look it is radical, religious, islamic fanatics who are perpetrating a lot of the evils and you will never be able to rationalize with a religious zealot.
Thats it, end of story. The truth is, Destroy evil when it rears its head..yes there are more subtle evils in the west, but subtle evils need not be blasted with High Explosives, you may excise it through the legal systems. The West is NOT the problem. The west is the salvation of humanity if things go right.
It is in the west where people are educated into the ideals that say, peace can work.
Also note, I am not defending the USA Im speaking of all western societies.
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Good lord, MagiK. Read some history, do. (Preferably history not written by the victors, which has a tendency to miss the odd important, but crucial point).
On your point about despots and tyrants, no, I am not putting all the blame on the West for their actions and existence. I am putting some of it, however. In the majority of cases, past actions taken by Western countries have contributed to the creation of the conditions in which tyrants flourish.
It cannot be denied that America, with oodles of help from Pakistan, (just to take a fr'instance), created the Taliban, who have been oppressing the Afghans who don't agree with them for lo, these many moons.
It cannot be denied that huge numbers of people in the Middle East are deprived of democracy by disgusting regimes which are often funded AND ARMED by the West to suit their own strategic aims. (If you don't like these filthy regimes, DONT SELL THEM F*CKING ARMS! Same goes for Britain and other Western countries, by the way, just in case you think I'm America bashing here.)
If you want to be champions of democracy, then why support regimes such as that in Saudi Arabia, which have no respect for democracy? The Israeli thing is not particularly clever either, and is at the root of many of the problems. Why persist in supporting Israel's illegal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza? Without American funding, support and arms, they wouldn't be where they are now, (and you almost certainly wouldn't be in the position you are in now. It's a major contributory factor.)
And yes, there are evil people in the world. What do you mean, 'they are what they are because they are evil'? Come off it. Just out of interest, how do evil people become evil, in your opinion? Is there an 'evil' gene, do you think? Is 'evil' innate? Are some babies born evil? Do you think that evil arises, fully formed, out of a vaccum? ***** I would be really interested to have your view on this.
I have to say I find some of your views simplistic in the extreme. 'War' on terrorism - a fine sounding piece of rhetoric, that, until you examine it a little more closely. Yes of coures, I would LOVE to see terrorism eradicated. But I can tell you this, the American government will not accomplish it the way they seem to be going about it. (A brief glance at history will tell you that.)
Trying to treat the symptoms of a disease whilst blatantly ignoring the root causes gets us precisely nowhere. Tough on terrorism - yeah.....right.... what about being tough on the causes of terrorism? People support terrorists such as bin Laden because their lives are a misery, and they see no other hope. The way they see it, the West has everything, and they have nothing, and the West has contributed to their misery. Kill one terrorist, and a thousand martyrs spring up in his place. Can you not see that?? The conditions in which terrorists breed are still going to be there, but worse than ever, due to your intervention. You aren't going to be doing yourselves any favours by barging in with all your power and might!
In the Middle East, not to mention much of the rest of the world, America is often perceived as promoting a fundamentalist view of individual liberty and free markets, whilst being careless of the huge and growing inequalities between the developed and undeveloped world that they bring in their wake. (This is a whole big subject in itself, which I discussed at some length in the GATS thread.) Much could be done, by America and the rest of us rich Western countries, to change that view. Capitalism doesn't have to promote inequality. Unfortunately, it all too often does. (If you're interested, I can list you a whole list of books, sites and whatnot on this subject, which quote FACTS and FIGURES in relation to global capitalism and poverty in the world today.)
Last but not least, I'd like to say that I find your view of human beings dispiriting in the extreme. This idea that ALL life is predatory and out for itself. I think it's crap, if you'll excuse the term.
The point about human beings is we are INTELLIGENT, at least, that's the theory. (Some far less than others, admittedly.) We have the capacity for self awareness (although some are more self aware than others). We also have the capacity for enlightened self interest, which extends a lot further than personal self interest. Truly enlightened self interest extends to the planet as a whole, to the human race as a whole. Enlightened self interest is creative. It sees that we could do things differently, if we wanted to. We also have the capacity for love, and that alone has the power to change the world out of all recognition, if we let it.
You want to know how to defuse terrorism? Try carpet bombing countries such as Afghanistan with food and medicine. Follow that up with doctors and teachers.... and so on. Right now, they live in misery, and their leaders tell them constantly that it's all the West's fault. Constructive action speaks louder than rhetoric about democracy. Why don't we show them different?
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[This message has been edited by Silver Cheetah (edited 09-17-2001).]