Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by Chewbacca:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Karma and religious Law contain guilt.
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I take exception to this. This is as much a blanket statement as Heirophants alleged "hurtful" one.
For some, Karma is about taking responsibility and about forgiving. For some Karma *IS* God's/Nature's law of consequence. It is the enabler of all cause and effect, large and small, seen and unseen. Without Karma forgiveness and compassion as well as guilt and fear could not be causes and would have no effect.
For some, Karma is the very principle that enables the cause and effect of Christ-likeness.
You may believe differently about Karma, Yorick, but don't paint all of us who believe in Christ and Karma with such a narrow brush. [/QUOTE]Chewbacca, Heirophant made a blanket comment about PEOPLE. The Church being a collection of people, myself being included.
I'm making a comment about certain ideas. They are factual ideas nonetheless.
If a Hindu breaks a statue of Shiva, the CONSEQUENCE is a certain amount of Karma. There is no forgiveness from that. One can attempt to redress the balance and by good works earn Dharma that may counteract the Karmic retribution, but nonetheless the person is GUILTY of their action.
Jesus grace counteracts any CONSEQUENCE of sin. It directly counters Karmic retribution and consequences of negative actions. A slave trader who lived a life of murder was the one who wrote "amazing grace". After accepting Jesus his life changed dramatically, but this was a RESULT of, not a PROVISION for his salvation. Unlike Dharma, no human EARNS grace. It is freely offered to everyone who wants it, including yourself.
Without the Jewish Law there is no guilt in Christianity. Without Karma there is no negative consequence, nothing that keeps a record of wrongs, so I stand by what I said:
Karma and Law - which measure a persons actions against an impassive comparison - by their very nature create guilt and culpability in a person. The theology of Jesus saving grace by comparison removes a person from guilt and culpability. That is what Grace and forgiveness is all about. [/QUOTE]First, It would not be hard to substantiate Heirophants opinion, one which I agree with in large part. Perhaps he did not choose his words carefully and painted with a much broader brush than I would, but that does not change the fact I agree with the gist of his statement. The mere fact so many self-proclaimed Christians have attempted to shame him into repentance for his opinion speaks for itself. I know first-hand Christians who reject using fear and shame to attack people who believe differently and/or bring people in their fold. I have encountered other Christians who use shame and fear like a sword to slay non-believers and dissenting believers like myself.
Second, You are mistaking your opinion and beliefs for fact and evidently drawing conclusions about Karma from incomplete or perhaps even biased information. Your first mistake is assuming that Hinduism is the only religion with a concept of Karma. Your second mistake is assuming that concept falls into a very narrow and distinct definition. The definition of Karma you offered is a correct analysis of one way Karma is perceived or interpreted but
certainly is not the only way.
You have made some very narrow generalizations about a much broader idea. Though I wont shame you for it. I will simply state where I stand. Obviously, the undeniable fact I believe differently stands for itself.
I have already illustrated my personal belief how Karma, AKA the God's universal law of cause and effect, is the very vehicle by which forgiveness transforms guilt. This is not an uncommon belief, I could point out several good books on the topic.
Is it ridiculous for you to maintain that your belief and opinion about Karma is absolute fact, when obviously I have a very different idea than the one you propose? I have no need to proclaim my proffered beliefs and opinions as fact though. They are what they are.
Finally I think some of your statements about Christians are generalizations in and of themselves. I know Christians who believe the exact same thing about Karma that I do. You can speak for yourself, and perhaps your denomination, but you certainly dont speak for *ALL* of Christiandom or all believers of Christ. I am evident of this just being myself and typing what I have typed.
Also, Christians are quite capable of feeling guilty and committing sins. They do everyday. Being capable of forgiveness doesn't give anyone a pass to commit transgressions or put them above the Universal law in my belief and opinion. Once again, I have no need declare this as fact, it is well enough my belief and my opinion.