[Vaskez]

Bloody hell, this thread's escalated a bit. I've scanned all the posts, not read in great detail as there's too much.

Anyway, all the old arguments have come out. Personally I can shoot all of them down in a way to convince myself but that's not the question here.

Thing people have to realise about me, is that I'm not out to convince anybody of anything. I simply believe things that I am convinced of by a mixture of logic and inner feeling. The fact is I really don't see where some people get their beliefs. I mean I'm no genius or expert on anything but some of the arguments just seem ridiculous to me. I'm just here to learn what makes people tick that's why I'm asking these questions. Main points:

1) The idea that we are here for no particular purpose, that we are just insignificant beings floating in an uncaring world to live and to die and for no other reason just seems laughable to me. Look at EVERTHING in the world we know. EVERYTHING happens for a reason, every damn thing, even if we don't see the reason. Look at the perfect logic and pattern in nature. Scientists for thousands of years have been trying to work the world out. From biology chemistry and physics points of view. Each new discovery amazes them and how the world is built up. It all had to come from somewhere, Even scientists admit that just for the atoms to come together to form life the chance is like 10^-31 which is an unimaginably small chance. Then we haven't even spoken of where the very first matter came from. The only explanation is that it came from something that was there before it right? But where does that thing come from? Etc. Only an infinite thing BEYOND OUR COMPREHENSION can exist for ever. Therefore call it what you want. Some people say that the universe, the lifeless atoms created themselves or were always there. Bollocks. Everything except something that is infinite has an end and a beginning. Atoms are not infinite. Only something that understands infinity, i.e. has an infinite mind can create infinity. THere must be such a thing. We call it a God.

2) I'm no Bible basher. I don't even read it regularly and see most of it as symbolic, my belief that there is a God is completely seperate from the issue of whether I'm a Christian or not. People should see this as a seperate issue. Religion can only be based on past teachings and a feeling. The existance of a God can be based on logic (as in 1) that logic satisfies me) and feeling.

3) The point that religions cause war is also complete bollocks as Yorick has nicely pointed out. If the people fighting in the name of Christianity or Islam ever took notice of their own religion's teachings, they'd realise that all religions teach peace and love your neighbour. They give false reasons based on religions for their wars. Some people may THINK they are fighting in the name of their religion and their God is smiling on them but the chances are they have been misled in the name of religion. The Christian God at least never says war is good. These people I suppose can be said to be fighting because of religion but they are misled and it is not the religion itself's fault but the fault of the leader who misled them. The real cause, as Yorick said, is money etc. And the common argument that even the Bible says "eye for an eye" is invalid. People don't realise that that is in the Old Testament and the New Testament overrides and supercedes the Old Testament. The New Testament says love your neighbour. Think about that if you want to use the Bible in an argument.

4) People who believe that they are fine just by living a good moral life: this is all well and good but if you just admit the possibility that the Bible is true then it's not good enough. Like I said if you admit the possibility then you'd be stupid to just be satisfied with that. If you don't admit the possibility that the Bible is true then you I guess it's good enough for you. But then think about the point in 1) If you then admit the possibility that there is a God you must also admit the possibility that he gave his word in a book. Therefore all you have to decide is which book it is. Bible, Q'uran? Those 2 are pretty similar anyway and contain some of the same teachings. I have no argument to say that one religion is better than the other. I believe that the muslim God is the same as the Christian one, but as people have said, they are interpreted differently by different people.

5) People who share their beliefs with others do so because they believe that they are right and are happy and wish to share their happiness. They do not want to tell you their beliefs and convince you because they are arrogant and think your beliefs are stupid, rather, they love you as a brother/sister and as such want to do whatever they belive they need to to help you and make you happy. Some preachers can be bloody annoying, I admit and they are wrong to condemn everyone else, these are not the people you should listen to. The ones you should listen to are like Yorick who sees you as a friend and equal and just shows an honest will to make people happy in the way he knows best. If you do not want anyone's "help" because you are fine as you are then ok, but there's no need to be angry at nice people who think they are giving up their free time to help a brother.

6) People who have thought about this a lot and are happy in their belief that there is no God. Good for you if you are content and happy. I don't believe you are right because of logic in 1), the question that can a billion Christians be completely misled etc.? You might say they can be misled I mean, hey, they all believed that the world was flat in the middle ages. But, as so many people have said, you can make people do things but you can't make them FEEL and KNOW in their heart the presence of a God. You can't force faith. Also there is somewhat of a feeling inside me that plays a part of course, we of course you can't explain. Other aruments exist which are convincing to me: would we really have come about/been created with a need for food if there was no food? A need for sex if there was no sex? A need for God if there was no God? You might say that you don't feel a need for God. Of course, it might not be as strong as a "need" but I don't think that there is any person alive who has not by him/herself at least considered the possibility of a greater being? Why is this?

Phew that's all my thoughts I could come up with now. Hope you found them logical/helpful.

[ 01-22-2003, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: Vaskez ]