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Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk:
quote:
Originally posted by Neb:
quote:
Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk:
quote:
Originally posted by Neb:
There is only faith, there is no proof. No "proof" or "evidence" can be proven as being real, can be proven as being 100% true. So therefore all you actually have is faith, faith that your "proof" or "evidence" is real.
And yes, there are degrees of belief. And so what? Everything is belief, nothing can be proven so everything is faith. Pure faith and belief. We BELIEVE and have FAITH that everything exists though we cannot prove it, so therefore it is pure faith and belief.
The question is, do we believe in things because they are that way or are things the way they are because we believe them to be so?
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The argument you put forth puts the standard for “proof” and “evidence” artificially high, for all practical human purposes there are degrees of faith and proof, after all is there not the Cogito?
“I think therefore I am”, this is defiantly proof of our existence, therefore there are degrees of proof, even if only 3.
I.e absolute proof, that is Cogito ergo sum, and contingent truth like 2+2= 4 and every other “truth”.[/QUOTE]That is proof of your existence? No, it is not. You have no proof, how are you sure that you think? Might you not just be reacting in very complex instinctive ways? Sorry Dramnek, I've yet to see any actual proof from you.
2+2=4? How can you be sure that that is true? How can you prove that 2+2=555 isn't true? It's relative [img]tongue.gif[/img] It's both true and untrue at the same time, by one rule it is true, by another rule it is not. But which rule is the correct one? Neither, therefore none of them are true, none of them are correct, none of them are proof.[/QUOTE]2+2 cannot ever be anything but 4 since it is a Contingent truth, you cannot have 2+2 equalling anything other than 4, it just cannot happen. It is part of the very basis of 2+2 that they equal 4, since it is a contingent truth.
Also you are attacking a straw man, The Cogito is not proof of my existence but it is proof of yours.
If you deny that you exist, you are involved in a self-contradiction.
Also numbers are representations of groups that we find in the real world, we then assign words to these groups to represent them, therefore these words cannot represent anything but these arbitrary groups, 4 cannot start equalling 3 in the real world since again it is a contingent truth that 4 is 4 things together in a group. As I have said it is a contingent truth, and therefore to mankind it is true and cannot be any other way.[/QB][/QUOTE]Unless I was using a different system than you? [img]tongue.gif[/img] There ARE numerical systems where 2+2 would not equal 4. Damn, this is one of those rare occasions where I know the words in Danish but not in English....
Like.... In "our" system 5+5=10 But in another 8+8=10 might be true.... So in a system where 2+2=10, 2+2=4 cannot be true [img]tongue.gif[/img]