[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Eisenschwarz: You’re talking about supernaturalism there. But Science only deals with Tangible proofs and evidence, So to say that someone _is_ cured by “god’s grace” is rather misleading, since there is no scientfic justification for that (the matriel world, including people getting cured come under the jurisdiction of science) nor will there ever be, unless someone empirically proves the existence of a god or higher power of the sort that your beliefs subscribe too. So someone can believe that they were cured by such, but ultimately it comes down to a matter of faith, and so it is inadmissible as evidence in any form of logical debate and argument. I can say that I think for example When I went Short sited in my right eye, That It was caused By something to do with hardening of the lenses or something? or I could say that It was done by god who was angry that I had done sometihng bad, However on the one hand I have an Optician to back one veiw up with the whole wieght of human scietific endevour and "proof" behind him, On the other hand I have faith in A God and faith in various doctrinesn needed to ascribe my ocular malady to him. The choice is up to the individual in the end.

There is one fundamental difference between the two examples, Eisenschwarz. An examination by a trained doctor will find the the physical cause of your reduced eyesight. It is easily and readily identifiable by scientific means.

But I had Peritonitis running rampant through my system for 30 hours. According to all medical knowledge and scientific data, the Peritonitis should have also spread to my bloodstream and killed me within the next 72 hours - but it didn't. The "fact" is that there are occurrences that science cannot explain. My example was one of them. If it can't be explained by scientific methodology, then the explanation must lie somewhere else. You call it supernatural, I call it God's Grace. Fair enough on both counts.

As for the "empirical results" I spoke of, the fact that I am still alive (in defiance of any scientific explanation) DOES count as empirical evidence. You may disagree with my hypothesis (God's Grace), but you cannot disagree with the evidence (that I'm still alive).

However, I will stop there. And I will also compliment you on the entirety of your response to me. You offered excellent counterpoints to my assertions and I give credit where credit is due. I'm sure many people would say that I don't fear death because of my faith. I have to admit they are probably right. Although I admit that I do have some fear of the physical sensations I will experience as I die....I have NO fear about what happens afterwards. In my opinion, my faith is not base on blind hope - but I won't contest your assertion that it is.

I could give more examples of why I feel it isn't, but this thread WAS originally designed primarily to allow atheists to explain the reasons for their beliefs (or lack thereof) - so I will step back and allow you to have the spotlight once again.