Thread: The Maryland Sniper problem.
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Old 10-08-2002, 10:42 PM   #70
MagiK
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Krustin:
quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
Gaaaaaaaah Im locked out from work again

Sir T. [img]smile.gif[/img] lookforward to discussing firearms with you when I get the next chance. In all my years using Rifles and Pistols I have never heard anyone promote the .223 as a "sniper" round. the .223 is a far cry from a .308 and that has always been the round of choice by anyone I have been associated with for a sniper round unless you start talking 3/4 mile or so then they start talking about about the big .50. The AR15,M16 are assault type weaposn and are not designed for long range fire. THe M16 round is designed to tumble..definately NOT something you want happening for long range shots.
A couple of comments. Yes, I agree with your assessment, but it's important to note that the caliber he's discussing here is a center-fire cartridge - MUCH more powerful than yer typical varmint round (usually .22LR; though .223 is used) It has sufficient velocity to get good accuracy out to 600+ yds. I still prefer the .243 for nuisance varmint hunting, mainly because wolf and coyote are a problem up here. (Can you say *splat* when shooting groundhogs?? )

My varmit gun IS a .223 and it IS a center fire and I WON't use it on Deer or other large game because there is too much of a chance of just maiming the animal rather than a quick kill. Oh and I have seen groundhogs shrug off LR rounds from 100 yards. The .243 is a better all round varmit gun I think because you can better take down the bigger critters but I never liked it for white tail....too many shoulder shots didn't drop. (yes I hit them..you can hear the impact when you hit an animal with a bullet) We also used the .223 for picking off Turkeys at 100-300 yards with head shots. (ok we used a bench rest and a scope)

Also...addressing a popular misconception here...the M-16 round is *NOT* designed to tumble!! The M-16 is a rifle, this means that there are a number of spiral grooves inside the barrel designed to impart a spin to the projectile that leaves the barrel. This spin is exactly why rifles are preferable to old style smoothbore weapons -- they impart a stability to the round that makes it much more accurate. By nature, a spinning bullet does not tumble. In fact, studies by Dr. Fackler have shown that .223 rounds (such as those fired by the M-16) only tumble when fired through foliage; and even then they tumble EXACTLY ONCE, and then resume a steady trajectory.

You must not be watching the same gun shows that I have then [img]smile.gif[/img] And I do know that they are absolutly crap for real long range shooting. It isnt the barrel or rifeling that causes the tumble by the by, it is the standard round that is fired that does that.>

A Marine armoury sergeant tells me that older M-16s with worn barrels (and less twist) were prone to tumbling, but these weapons are obviously not desirable for sniper use.

Quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:

As for effectiveness we would never use our .223 for a human or deer size target if we had access to a larger round, such as a .243, .284 or .308 (I really like the .284 but they are hard to find. We lost several deer after we hit them and knocked them down with the .223, found one of them later and there was a circular bare spot where the hot load .223 exploded on contact with the skin and blew all the hair and surface level of the hide right off but didnt stop the deer

You need to learn how to shoot! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I know Indians that shoot whitetails and *moose* with .22LR single-shots![/QUOTE]LOL I didnt say you COULDNT kill a deer with a .223 I said we lost too many for it to be really humane or economical...I have never taken a White Tail with a .22LR but for a while we did use a 22Hornet which is not too much beefier. Basicly we wanted clean clear 1 shot 1 kill with little chance for error. We prefered head shots because we don't waste the meat, but on the first day of Buck season we allow Heart/Lung/Shoulder shots.

Anyway [img]smile.gif[/img] thanks for the info, I love talking guns...though it is off topic and um annoys some people. [img]smile.gif[/img]

PS. I was never on any rifle team (not many of those in the Navy [img]smile.gif[/img] ) but I did consistantly qualify expert both with the M14 and M16 and Pistols (9mm, 38 and yes with my .357 (a Smith 686) I could never get expert with the 45 for some reason though..I just couldnt shoot straight with it)


Hope I can get back in here form work tomorrow.