[Yorick]

Originally posted by ZFR: quote: Originally posted by machinehead: Imam Abu Hammid Ghazali says: "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible." (Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri, The Reliance of the Traveller, translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller, amana publications, 1997, section r8.2, page 745) Note that Al-Ghazali is one of the most famous and respected Muslim theologians of all time.

This is not the Quran!

If the Pope (or one of the most respected Christian theologians) says something, would you say "it is written in the Gospels that..."?

The two verses Micah mentioned do refer the taqiya. But there is nothing written about them about stealing.

These verses are:

[3:28] The believers never ally themselves with the disbelievers, instead of the believers. Whoever does this is exiled from GOD. Exempted are those who are forced to do this to avoid persecution. GOD alerts you that you shall reverence Him alone. To GOD is the ultimate destiny.

and

[16:106] Those who disbelieve in GOD, after having acquired faith, and become fully content with disbelief, have incurred wrath from GOD. The only ones to be excused are those who are forced to profess disbelief, while their hearts are full of faith.

1. These verses do not talk about lying in general but about particular lying: lying about your faith (hiding the fact that you are muslim)
2. They do not say: "you are allowed to lie to infidels" but "you are allowed to lie if under persecution to avoid it".
So it's not "you are allowed to lie to person X" but "you are allowed to lie under circumstance Y"
3. It says nothing about stealing.

So changing the sentence "you may lie about your faith to avoid persecution" to "you are allowed to lie and steal from infidels" is complete BS.

If you said the first sentence would you like it if someone quoted the second and said it's an equivalent of what you said?

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That aside, I'll grant you this: many muslims religious leaders do allow you lying to infidels just like you said. But the quran doesn't say it!

I was not trying to defend them.

Only don't write "Quran says" unless it actually says so. "Muslims say..." would be right.

EDIT: 3 posts beat me to this.. [/QUOTE]Well said ZFR!