01-03-2003, 09:07 AM
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#14
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Guest
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Points taken, but the realities are
1.Without WWI there would have been no Hitler.
I agree here, the horrible Treaty of Verssaile was disasterous and inhumane.
2.Without Western intervention in the Russian civil war there would have been no cold war.
Where did you get the idea that a pre-WWII event caused the cold war? From what I have read, the main emphasis for the cold war was Russia's (understandable) fear of invasion by outside forces, and their paranoid need to form a HUGE buffer between them and everyone else and their subsequent land grab that alarmed the west. (oh and the incompatibility of communism and the free western nations)
3.Without Nagasaki and Hiroshima there arguably would have been no nuclear arms race.
Wrong again, Nagasaki and Hiroshima were not the start of the Nuclear Arms race. Stalin had plans for the Bomb before the first test was ever conducted, he already knew about the potential of the bombs at the Potsdam meetings. The Nuclear Arms race was born the day that scinetists realized that the BOMB could be built. If you want to blame anyone for that race, you have to blame to instigators of the second world war, but even lacking the second world war, it was only a matter of time before some one somewhere developed the BOMB. Im just grateful that it was My nation and not some other nation.
I've never accepted the line that to defeat a monster one must become a monster.
Fighting evil and waging war does not make you a monster. The Atomic Bombs were not even the worst weapons used in World War II, the Firebombings of Dresden and Tokyo killed more and caused more suffering, both immediate and long term.
The Christians when persecuted, imprisoned and executed in Rome, did not rise up and defend themselves. They had an inner peace that was unbroken by a lion tearing them apart, or undimmed by Nero lighting them up as human torches.
Yet Christianity replaced Emperor worship as the Roman religion. Christianity "won" without a war. In actual fact, the persecution and executions were the greatest testimonies possible. Witnesses watching said "I want that" when viewing the inner peace.
Actually, Christianity did not do the Romans in, lead poisoning did. I see no great glory in allowing others to abuse you, torture you and kill you. Im sure God will reward you, but I do not belive for a second his intent was for us to be sheep....despite all the talk of sheepheards and sheep in the new testement. If he wanted sheep he didn't need to give us an intellect.
Ghandi too, totally rejected violence and won. Achieving India's independence through nonviolent resistence.
Again a partial truth, Ghandi alone was not the sole reason for the collapse of the British Empire. He was instrumental no doubt but not the lone reason.
Look, I argued for the Afgahni war. But I have problems with this one because of the premeditative nature of it. Premeditative invasions lead to Empires.
or prevent massive loss of life because some one actually used their brain to think ahead, instead of waiting for ever greater attrocities to occur
We can look at Rome and say, had the Gauls not sacked Rome (like Bin Laden "sacked" New York) the Roman Empire would not have arisen. Rome realised she was vulnerable, and changed policy. Invasion became commonplace.
Bin Laden sacked New York? I think not. He lobbed a grenade into a crowd but in no way even came close to sakking a city. The whole reason he is a terrorist and not a General is because his cause cannot rally the forces needed to wage a true war, so he must strike from the shadows and at the innocent rather than at an army.
What will America become?
I am leaning towards total pacifism, but struggle with it. I realise there are cases where it may prove an impossible benchmark for a flawed human to adhere to.
If you actually ever do become a "total" pacifist, please never marry or have children. If you are not willing to defend and protect the people who you are responsible for...do not take the responsibility....I ask this as a serious request. Children need a parent who will defend and protect them, not go on a hunger strike if the child is abducted.
But surely we can all weep at the prospect of more human lives being needlessly destroyed, no matter who is to blame.
Amen!
War is madness.
Amen again!
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