quote:
Originally posted by Barry the Sprout:
We've done it again! We have entered a discussion about America - it is not about America exclusively.
And guys, it was you who said that human nature was greedy. I agreed with you under capitalism, and then you started arguing with me! I can't win here! What I would say is that the examples given show how human nature is not truly greedy. This supports my argument not yours IMO. Human nature is to care for other people in all ways - but capitalism twists it into this strange kind of contortion we have now. Humans are not intended to be greedy, that is where my beleif in Christianity comes into my argument I am afraid. We have made ourselves into this greedy bastard society, but every now and then something happens that causes us to show our true nature. This was what I meant earlier when I said that communism would work. Sorry if I didn't explain it properly.
Also Yorick, Marxism is one of the few things I know inside out. I am sorry to tell you that (in your own words [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) you don't know what you are talking about j/k. The practical definition of socialism under classical marxist terms is the transitionary stage before communism is reached. Sorry but that is true, not just my opinion. Dramnek, you know marxism... help me out here!
Also Magness thank you for finally giving your reasons. They are good reasons I will admit. But can I just say that is Stalin or Mao are considered good communists then I don't want the word associated with me. A state that works for the good of the whole does not need to kill people, so they are wrong. I am just as opposed to stalinism and Maoism as you I am afraid.
Thanks Khan BTW! Sentiment appreciated.
Marxism is not the only brand of Communism. Leninism and Stalinism were the Russian interpretations for a start.
I stand by what I say, but will perhaps quantify. Communism,
as existed in Russia, was meant to be a transition to bring about true Socialism, yet failed, largely due to the inability of the government to let go of power.
This isn't my opinion either, but information I've recieved from third parties. If it's a case of reversing definitions then so be it. However, you would hardly call Russia a Socialist state. Inequality was everywhere. There's not meant to be classes under Socialism right?
Well, Russia failed on that point. The ruling class is a class.
To date only one Russian leader in the entire history of the nation, has let go of power of his/her own volition, and not by death or coup d'etat.
Yeltsin.
Perhaps you could explain how Socialism brings about Communism rather than the other way round. Perhaps we need to clarify our definitions.
Finally, on the Christian matter, do you mean to say we were not created flawed? The potential for sin was necessary to show extreme love, forgiveness and self-sacrifice, and to spur discovery and relationship with God.
Every moment we have the option to choose the light or the dark action, yet without God there is no reason to do so, and nor is it possible to avoid dark actions. Humans are imperfect. Your Christian ideology would recognise this, as that's the whole reason for Jesus. He doesn't make us perfect but atones and enables relationship.
Besides, like all our failings, what we call "greed" depending on the context can be a positive action. Survival instict, self preservation. Shoreing up provisions for a rainy day.
Our failings are also our strengths given different circumstances. Think Stubbornness and flexability. Both can be very valuable and yet very problematic given different situations.
Adaptation (a fundamental human abitity) and discernment become a necessity.