Ironworks Gaming Forum - View Single Post - US out-sourcing torture?

Lucern · 02-22-2005, 05:17 PM

I've met people from two of those countries who have been tortured. What happened to one guy in Syria was awful. They get condemned annually by organizations like Human Rights Watch and Amnesty Int'l, and rightfully so. The US cannot chastise all of them, because Egypt, at least, is an 'ally'.

The US, however, was a leading author of the Convention Against Torture. It is also the largest contributor to the UN Voluntary Fund on Torture ($3M in 1999, to give you an idea). The US supports article 5 of the UN Declaration of Human Rights that states "no one shall be subjected to torture or cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment." Harold Koh, the Assisant Secretary of State for Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor in 1999 said torture was "categorically denounced as a matter of policy and as a tool of state authortiy...No exceptional circumstances may be invoked as a justification for torture."

Well over 100 countries employ torture in the world, (depending on the definition of torture used, of course - it would be less if we went by Alberto Gonzales' hypothetical "it's not torture until organ-failure or death" definition).

But Americans do not expect our country to be among them. I think the concept would bother most of us. More recently of course, actions have spoken louder than our words about torture.* Besides Abu Ghraib, there are mounting claims in Guantanamo and an Afghan prison, and we have a somewhat murky set of legal definitions at the moment. And these are home-grown, rather than outsourced, mind you. Torture, at the moment, might seem endemic to the current political climate to many Americans, but is epidemic throughout most of the world, and it would be wrong to blame the US exclusively when dealing with torture.

But, in case anyone's unclear about my take on it, I think anyone anyone in the US's representative bodies who has ever voiced support of, or allowed for torture to happen should be relieved of their posts. It's illegal and immoral by almost any standard. There is a problem, and we don't have to wait for it to become systemic before we reform.

*Or, less recently, I don't think you would be entirely wrong to associate the old CIA-run School of Americas with the prongs of human-rights violating troops trained to fight insurgents in Latin American countries.

[ 02-22-2005, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: Lucern ]

02-22-2005, 05:17 PM	#3
Lucern Quintesson Join Date: August 28, 2004 Location: the middle of Michigan Age: 43 Posts: 1,011	I've met people from two of those countries who have been tortured. What happened to one guy in Syria was awful. They get condemned annually by organizations like Human Rights Watch and Amnesty Int'l, and rightfully so. The US cannot chastise all of them, because Egypt, at least, is an 'ally'. The US, however, was a leading author of the Convention Against Torture. It is also the largest contributor to the UN Voluntary Fund on Torture ($3M in 1999, to give you an idea). The US supports article 5 of the UN Declaration of Human Rights that states "no one shall be subjected to torture or cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment." Harold Koh, the Assisant Secretary of State for Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor in 1999 said torture was "categorically denounced as a matter of policy and as a tool of state authortiy...No exceptional circumstances may be invoked as a justification for torture." Well over 100 countries employ torture in the world, (depending on the definition of torture used, of course - it would be less if we went by Alberto Gonzales' hypothetical "it's not torture until organ-failure or death" definition). But Americans do not expect our country to be among them. I think the concept would bother most of us. More recently of course, actions have spoken louder than our words about torture.* Besides Abu Ghraib, there are mounting claims in Guantanamo and an Afghan prison, and we have a somewhat murky set of legal definitions at the moment. And these are home-grown, rather than outsourced, mind you. Torture, at the moment, might seem endemic to the current political climate to many Americans, but is epidemic throughout most of the world, and it would be wrong to blame the US exclusively when dealing with torture. But, in case anyone's unclear about my take on it, I think anyone anyone in the US's representative bodies who has ever voiced support of, or allowed for torture to happen should be relieved of their posts. It's illegal and immoral by almost any standard. There is a problem, and we don't have to wait for it to become systemic before we reform. *Or, less recently, I don't think you would be entirely wrong to associate the old CIA-run School of Americas with the prongs of human-rights violating troops trained to fight insurgents in Latin American countries. [ 02-22-2005, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: Lucern ]