[Barry the Sprout]

Yorick, did you have to answer that in three different posts? It makes it hard to quote and respond to.

You allude that I have no figures to support my claim that protests persuade people, yet you then categorically state that "many more" people are turned away? Do you have any figures to support that claim yourself or are you, like me, using personal experience. I started by pointing out I was talking from personal experience, therefore unashamedly not using supporting figures. To criticise me on this ground therefore seems peculiarly irrelevant. You can say that you have a different experience of protests than me, which it sounds like you do, but its hypocritical to criticise me for making statements without supporting evidence and then do the same yourself.

Secondly, in response to the blocking ambulances thing I once again refer to my point about there being a right way and a wrong way to do things. Because I think protests can be effective doesn't mean I think all protests are always effective. Far from it. If a protest blocks an ambulance then you are right, they don't do themselves any favours. But to condemn all protests on that grounds is to throw out the baby with the bathwater. To give an example of a protest changing peoples opinions I can cite a regular protest me and the Trot organisation I'm a member of do at the Isreali embassy. We protest fortnightly outside the embassy because of the imprisonment of the Refuseniks - approx 15 of us with a megaphone, some placards and some leaflets. We regularly get passers by stopping and talking to us, sometimes even joining in (and this is in Kensington...). People join our mailing lists, sign our petitions, go to follow up meetings and turn up at the next protest, even if only for a few minutes it allows us to disseminate our ideas and persuade people to our way of thinking.

Finally I'd like to answer your response to the Lenin quote. You say that Lenin was writing in a time when he had recourse to fewer alternatives than protest. For a start you need to take the quote in the abstract, as ironically Lenin is actually refferring to electoral participation. My use of the quote was to basically support my idea that if you feel strongly about something then you should try everything to change it, however distastful that may seem to you (as participation in the Russian electoral system seemed to Lenin). Secondly I feel your response that things were different doesn't really answer the point. Either things need changing or they don't. If they do then I fail to see why you would turn away from one instrument of change just because another is available - why not use both? I have no objections to using the "democratic" process, I just don't see why we shouldn't try everything else as well. This objection of yours seems at odds with your other points. Here you imply that protesting is a weapon, but other, better, ones are available. Elsewhere you imply that protesting is only a weapon if it is the equivalent of the Cursed Sword of Beserking +3, as harmful to yourself as your enemy. It can't be both - which is your real reason for rejecting it.