Quote:
Originally posted by frudi_x:
than answer this for me - who, where, how and why created the creator?
i have already shown you that as far as science is concerned, there is no place left for the creator to hide, except in setting the initial conditions at the moment of the creation (of the universe). any other creator, that would meddle in the affairs of particular objects inside the universe, would itself also have come into being as a consequence of the actions of natural laws. and we are again at the problem of how that intelligence came to be...
you go on and on about the necessity for proof and hard evidence, yet i fail to see any evidence from you that would point to the existence of a creator. if you believe some abstract elements to be vital for the formation of the universe or life, that is only your belief; it proves nothing and carries no scientific weight.
for science, there is no need for a divine component, no necessity for some hidden driving force behind natural phenomena.
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The creator, by nature is the one infinite eternal uncreated thing in the universe. The question "who created the creator" is irrelevent, because it is not believed that the creator I am speaking about HAS a beginning at all. Infinite as in: no beginning, no end, no limit physically, no restriction, beyond time, beyond limitation, beyond human comprehension.
You ask a question about something I do not believe.
As far as where something would hide, firstly, there is a vast area where anything can hide - outside human knowledge or understanding.
Are you assuming we humans have grasped all there is to grasp? Seen all there is to see? All you know is a tiny fraction of what there is to know. We inhabit one tiny corner of what we know is the universe, for a relative microsecond, and you say "there's nowhere for him to hide". C'mon. Get real. There could be multiple dimensions, parts of the universe or alternate universes where laws of physics are completely altered, there are infinite possibilites! Black holes aren't fully understood. You're talking about a being outside measurable and absolute time, yet we've only relatively recently discovered the relativity of measurable time.
As for "proof", I hand you the testimonies of the majority of humans who have ever lived who have experienced a belief in some sort of creator. In asserting there is none, you override the "truth" of the majortiy of humans and declare their experience both INVALID and IRRELEVENT. Yet, a person of faith will not override your experience in declaring to have had an experience of knowing the creator.
That said however, I present the nature of faith itself, as needing an absence of proof to exist. Where there is indisputable proof, there is no need for faith.
As with your question about "who created the creator" you need to understand the NATURE of the subject, before applying rules of one modus operandi onto another.
You cannot see sound, you have to hear it. You cannot hear cold, you have to feel it. You cannot taste love, you have to give it. Being unable to see sound, hear cold or taste love, doesn't mean they don't exist.
Take faith and the creator on the terms in which they exist, not in the way you approach discovering other elements.
Cheers.
Hugh
[ 09-03-2004, 02:38 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]