[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: The SBVFT are a bunch of partisan dousch bags. They are a bunch of bitter Republican pills who can't get over the fact that Kerry joined thousands of other Vets speaking out against the Vietnam war when he returned from service there. I nominate them collectively for this year's "Biggest Douschbags in the Universe" award.

So saying something against your chosen candidate qualifies these other Vietnam Veterans as "Biggest Douschbags in the Universe". How very tolerant of opposing views you are, Chewbacca.

But it's alright for Michael Moore to produce a partisan film whose only goal (by Moore's own admission) is to make sure George W. Bush doesn't get re-elected. Moore also created a completely FALSE hype over the supposed "banning" of it's distribution by Disney to increase ticket sales and smear "big business" at the same time.

As for the "overwhelming evidence" against the SVBFT, the evidence against Moore's manipulations in his films is also overwhelming - you just choose not to believe any of it.

One thing I can tell you for a fact is that MOST Vietnam Veterans have very little tolerance for those that spoke out against the war the way Kerry did. I have two unlces that are Vietnam Vets and they both despise Jane Fonda to this day because of her actions. Yes, she and Kerry had a right to do and say what they wanted to...but the rest of the veterans have that SAME right..and you will find this reaction is standard among the vast majority of them.

I also find it ironic that Kerry had such condemnation of our actions in Vietnam back when it was political vogue to do so, but now he wants to emphasize and highlight the part he played in it.

What I heard about this incident came from a retired general who has talked to 18 of the men that were present during the incident on the river. Every single one of them denies Kerry's account of the situation. They also take great offense at Kerry using a photo of him with many of these same men in one of his campaign ads to show the "support and cameraderie" he had with these men. That photo was used without the permission of any of the other men in the picture. Kerry didn't contact any of them to ask their opinion on the photo being used. They said that the incident where he "rushed ashore" to save another member and had to kill a Viet Cong in the process has been "highly exaggerated" by Kerry.

Thier version of what happened is that the Viet Cong fired on their boat and they returned fire with their 50mm gun, hitting and critically wounding the Viet Cong shooter. Kerry then piloted his boat straight to the shore (which is a direct violation of military policy - you never take your boat to the shore when there is enemy fire), jumped off the boat and shot the Viet Cong as he lay bleeding on the ground. Then he picked up his fallen comrade and put him in the boat.

Now, personally, I don't care how Kerry performed his actions. I think it was admirable for him to save his comrade and there is nothing wrong with shooting a fallen enemy (who possibly could still shoot at your men). I also feel that Kerry earned the right to complain about the War (unlike Jane Fonda) because he did actually live the experience firsthand. (remember, I said it is other veterans that despise him for his actions...I didn't say I completely agreed with them).

As for the evidence you presented, I couldn't read the bit from the Washington Post and I don't feel like registering just to see it. One thing to keep in mind about the reports written at the time is that there has also been LOTS of accusations that many reports were either falsified or written under coercion and duress from senior officers during the War. The gov't didn't want any "negative" presentation of the war and most reports were written by senior officers with that directive in mind. There have been plenty of accusations in other incidents that junior officers (and regular enlisted men) were basically forced to go along with the senior officer account, regardless of what it said.

Now, as far as Kerry's Bronze Star is concerned, it isn't my place to question whether he deserved it or not. The only ones that could actually question that are the ones who were actually there at the time. Of course, those men have now been labeled "Biggest Douschbags in the Universe", so I suppose that means their opinions and accounts don't count.