[Yorick]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: I strongly disagree. Even if there is a soul, I think it would not enter until the creature has brain activity. If we can euthanize someone who's a vegetable, the fetus who has not yet had a thought is equally "unalive." Besides, I know too much biology to accept this -- I'd at least like for it to look different than a fish's fetus before I start calling it human.

A baby looks, acts, sounds and moves very differently to a 50 year old, yet do we suggest the two are not the same lifeform? A catarpillar becomes a butterfly. Does it suddenly become anything other than an insect while in the coccoon? A foetus at the point of conception - whether you believe in a soul or not (irrelevent) is human life. A human lifeform AT THE POINT OF CONCEPTION, as opposed to a human lifeform at the point of death, say asphyxiation, which would also look and act differently to a human lifeform at the point of orgasm.

CIRCUMSTANCE is all that changes it's substance. Time will propel the lifeform into full potential. But it will not be anything other than human.

I also have a different experience here. I have found that the majority who have shared their experience with me consider it the right choice, even though it causes them sadness. The ones who are the least affected are the ones who took the morning after pill (which has been available for a lot longer than it's been legal).

I stand by my assertions. No words on the internet erase the living breathing women I have encountered, who have deeply regretted their actions. The point was, the girl I knew marching had never had an abortion. I considered that ironic, considering I was with a girl who HAD aborted, and is the aforementioned speaker at the abortion counselling clinic (over 200 women will be there). 200 women needing counselling for abortion is 200 too many.

I have two problems with this: 1. I think that developing good humans is far more important than simply birthing more humans. I am in favor of quality over quantity -- and you know my views about overpopulation support the same perspective. Any sow can pop out a kid -- it don't make you a special and beautiful flower. But, it takes a lot of effort and caring to be a good parent. There's a big distinction here.

Any sow can pop out a kid? That's laughable and offensive Timber. I'll let any women who's given birth speak about the amount of effort that goes into carrying a child for nine months, making decisions that will affect it's health, not to mention the supreme effort of actually birthing the child. It's ludicrous for a male to comment on the ease of labour. You have no idea what it takes to bring a human life into the world, so why comment on how easy it is or isn't?

2. I don't want to aggrandize childbirthing to the point that it overshadows the other accomplishments women can make. I know a wonderful trial attorney who is getting high marks at her job and becoming a very skilled prosecutor. She does a lot of good in this world. If she got pregnant tomorrow and decided, "You know what, I'm not ready yet," I would fully understand (oh, did I mention she's my wife?). There are contributions women can make to society that are vastly superior to popping out another mouth to feed. As I said, it's their choice.

I'm sure she does a lot of good in the world, but a man could be doing the same thing. What she can do, that a man can never do, is bring a human life into the world. Create it for nine months and then under extreme exertion bring it out into the air.

I will aggrandize childbirthing as the ultimate creation. The fact that men CANNOT birth children, is why, in my opinion, so many men are concerned with creating "children" that survive them. Be that art, political achievements, buildings, a legacy, whatever. My songs for example, are my children. I create them, birth them, and release them where they then have a life of their own. However, a woman's real children make these paltry by comparison. There is nothing higher than bringing a human life into the world.

Are you simply "another mouth to feed" Timber? Is that your assessment of your contribution to the planet. Again, your views on life and the human race show a startling lack of esteem. Was your mothers creation a waste of energy? Are you a parasite on the planet and to society? Look at yourself and apply it to all humans. A life is worth unspeakable value.

At the end of the day, no-one on their death bed wishes they'd spent more time at work. More time putting criminals in prison, or filing lawsuits. FAMILY, time with family and loved ones ends up being what is held dearest.