[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by LordKathen: This has been one of the most interesting threads I have read in a long time. Most of you have come around to agreeing to disagree. Some have not, but owell. I am an athiest. I do not believe in anything supernatural or the like, period. Concerning the "faith healing", I would agree that there is much of a psycological placebo effect when you believe hard enough, sometimes. Ironically, to me, this aplies to faith in a superior being or creator as it goes. The more you believe "God" helps you, the more you actually are helping yourself, subconsciencely. The Bible is quite a masterpiece of literature, granted, but I believe its only that. Someone mentioned earlier the example of a modern author writing a book including buildings and such. You can certainly prove the buildings are (or we're) there, but if its fiction writing that doesn't prove the characters we're there, does it? There is plenty of artifacts and such that are mentioned in the Bible, maybe even historical evidence of certain characters, even Jesus himself, but no evidence of the supernatural elements of them. You could show me all of the thousands of documents proving certain places or people we're real, that doesn't prove the "stories" we're real. It seems to me that if it all could be proven to be fact, the "stories" of Christ that is, then you would not need faith, right? I mean is'nt that the point. Just thought I would put my input in before it gets heated in here again. Anyway, my opinion is only my opinion, so before anyone gets in a huff, remember that its only my opinion. I hope this is ok to post, but its not a gaming forum so maybe it will be alright with Choc. A great place to converse and debate with others solely about these topics. http://www.iidb.org/vbb/index.php?s=...40cd96c68b3c1f

Hey Lord K, it's good to see you here again. [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img]

I knew it would be just a matter of time before someone suggested that "faith healing" was merely a psychological placebe. Granted, the example I listed could fit into that category. After all, the burn is not actually healed, only the pain is removed. And I would be the first to agree that - if you have enough faith and expect it to work - then that increases the chances that it will. However, there is a BIG difference between removing (or overcoming) the sensory feeling of pain and actually restoring sight to a damaged eye (as in the case Yorick cited). The instantaneous repair of physically damaged tissue is much more difficult to explain away as a placebo effect. Mainly because the placebo effect suggests the human mind overcomes negative sensory input because the person believes strongly enough that the negative input will be cancelled. It's basically an example of mind over matter (to oversimplify). However, overcoming sensory input is far different from physically repairing damaged cells with the power of your mind.

Also, the "placebo effect" does not apply in my case for a couple of reasons. First of all, I realized going into surgery that I was in very critical condition - and I knew there was a chance I might not survive this time (I'd had many problems before with the chronic illnes - but nothing anywhere near this severe). I DID say a prayer before going into surgery, but it was a very weak prayer because I was in such intense pain that I couldn't focus my thoughts well enough for strong and coherent prayer.

Secondly, the one weak prayer I offered was the only one I was aware of - and I simply wasn't sure if it would be enough. Then I was taken directly to the O.R. and given anesthesia. The last conscious thought I had was my conversation with the anesthesiologist. He leaned down and said "I'm going to take away your pain." (through the drugs he was about to give me). I looked at him and said "YOU'RE the man I've been looking for since yesterday." My injuries had occurred over 30 hours BEFORE I was ever admitted to the O.R.

While I knew I was in critical condition, I did NOT know just HOW critical!!! When the surgery was finished, the surgeon came out to my wife and mother and asked them point blank if they believed in miracles. They both replied they did. "That's good," he said "because a miracle is the only thing that will save him now. I did what I could, but to be honost, it wasn't enough. Personally, I don't expect him to survive past the next 72 hours." My mom and wife broke down (of course) and went out to the waiting room. Someone asked my mom what was wrong and she told them...she then asked if everybody in the waiting room would pray with her for God to spare me. They did. A roomful of complete strangers joined my mom in pray on my behalf. Later that week (after the 72 hrs had passed), I had a visit from a coworker from back home. She told me that - in addition to the strangers in the Waiting Room that night - many, many people back home had also been praying for me. I worked at the local hospital which had around 300 employees. Everyone there knew how serious my condition was and several of them had called their pastors and fellow church members and began a series of "prayer chains" (where members of a church call other members and tell them to be praying for a specific person, family, or incident). So there were several dozen (perhaps over 100) people back home who were also going to God in prayer on my behalf.

The one thing that prevents this from being a placebo effect though is that I didn't know anything about any of these prayers at all !!! I wasn't even told what the surgeon had said until the critical 72 hours had passed...so I had no way of knowing that the surgeon had said I would die unless a miracle occurred nor did I have any way of knowing that several people (many of whom didn't even know me) were praying for my recovery. In order for the placebo effect to work, the subject HAS to be aware that some outside influence is supposed to be acting on their behalf, yet I had absolutely no knowledge of any of these events. So there was no way I could have exercised my faith enough to effect the miraculous recovery.

I'm not completely knocking what you say. I agree there are certain situations when it is applicable. But I also know from personal experience that there are other cases that completely refute the theory of the psychological placebo effect. There are some cases that simply cannot be explained by that phenomon.