[Yorick]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: [QB] I think my beliefs with regards to the basis of my society are sound, I did not say that Christian ideals had nothing to do with the basis for American society, just that its is not an absolute in the equation. There is a principle involved. Too much I have heard people use this claim of christian roots to serve their own purposes, whether it is banning gay marriage or the ten commandments in the courtroom, or under god in the pledge.

Fair enough

For one group to claim to be the founder of the nations ideals to me is nothing but pure egotism and a slap in the face to the diverse and free society that exists here because of those very ideas. As much as you discredit puratinism, those puritans did and still do call themselves christians, and they persecute people with differing beliefs with zest and fervor.

You're assuming I am placing the foundation of western society as a positive thing. Perhaps unaware of the many problems I have with western society. I'm not stating the foundations as a matter of prideful ownership, but anthropological fact.

The simple fact that congress shall make no laws to establish religion is a cornerstone of American ideals, contrast this with organized christianity through out the ages and how it has done so much to make itself the only one true religion and it should be clear to you why I must disagree that America has or is based on a christian society, even if that is generically true in a sense.

I never stated America is a Christian society. Never. I did not even say America was a Christian nation. There is a big difference between a nation being founded on Judeo-Christian ethics, and being a Christian society or nation.

The founders of the nation were products of a society with Judeo-Christian ethics. You can have Judeo-Christian ehtics without being a Jew or a Christian. Ethics are not faith. Morals are not a religion. Individuals with particular beliefs and values, instilled the nation with the said values - whcih onclude seperation of church and state. I am a Christian. I advocate seperation of church and state. It is precisely the values I have as a Christian, not just a product of Judeo-Christian society - that lead me to believe the importance of the seperation. Seperation is not proof of secularism, for in my case, the seperation is based on a religious ideal.

Seperation of church and state is not the same thing as individuals objectively forgoing their faith. My faith underlies any political movement on my part. It is impossible to seperate my faith from my personal beliefs, as it is a foundation for everything else. This is not the same thing involving an organised church, or religion though.

There is a big difference, and I hope I'm explaining it adequately.

Put simply, though the church and state are seperated in America, it has had a larger proportion of Christians influencing it's policy from the oval office, than has England, which does NOT have seperation of Church and state.

The seperation is precisely what allows individuals the freedom to excercise their beliefs.

It has nothing to do with bias against the personal practice of christianity or bias against the very distinct values Christ represents, some of which I outlined above. It does have everything to do with being biased againgst bias, in this instance a Christian bias with regard to my goverment to be exact. A government which I believe should be free from any religious bias by the very virtues of its codification.

Except that the codification of the said seperation can be held to be a religious ideal. Bias is inescapable.

You say I am a product of my society, I agree, I am a product of a highly diverse and almost free society.

To an extent Chewbacca. It is also in some areas a highly repressed, divided and prohibitive society. The gap between rich and poor for example, means some peoples "freedom" is greater than others. The freedom to be communist was wiped out during the cold war as a second example. The sexual repression within society has led to explosions in the opposite direction.

However, the freedoms and diversity allowed are most certainly ideals found within Christianity. Christianity is a faith built around Grace. Extending the Grace one receives from Christ, outward. It is a faith that preaches loving your enemy, being patient, being generous in spirit. To suggest "freedom and diersity" are not products of people with ethics based on Jesus changes in society is not correct. His ideas were totally revolutionary and have had far greater impact than just in the lives of those that profess to know him today.

No hard feelings mate, but lets just let it go and get back to the topic of the debate and leave making judgment calls about each other out of it. Agree? [img]smile.gif[/img]

Agreed. Fair call. Have a good night. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 08-09-2003, 05:22 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]