[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: quote: Originally posted by Chewbacca: Considering the Grand Canyon is considered sacred by native americans, who were forcibly christianized in mass for all intents and purposes, I consider these plaques not only unconstitutional but offensive as well. Good riddance I say, we have enough painful reminders of the past.

You can call my comment about your resentfulness towards Christianity a boat-load of crap if you want, but your own words seem to suggest otherwise. According to your last statement above, any public display of Christianity is a "painful reminder of the past" and the plaques were "offensive".

I'm not trying to flamebait you. I am merely drawing conclusions from statements you have made. I also said that I respect your viewpoint and beliefs and I have echoed that same sentiment in the past.[/QUOTE]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: Umm, look again at the context of my statement. You failed to highlight the part about how the Grand Canyon is considered sacred by people who were forced to convert to Christianity. Walk in the shoes of someone who's recent ancestors were persecuted by a group, see how they would feel if that group had plaques put up in front of a holy site.

You're right, Chewbacca, I didn't highlight that part of your statement...because I was saving it for this response. I agree it is very important to realize that Native Americans consider the Grand Canyon a sacred site. That also leads back to the statement I made in my original post where I questioned how strongly you would defend the A.C.L.U. if the text on the plaques exalted the Native American gods. You didn't respond to that statement, but I believe your comments here answer that question well enough.

Originally posted by Chewbacca: I have a deep affinity with Native American Culture and spirituality, though I can't claim to any gentic hertitage due to the fact that I dont know my genetic hertiage at all. Combine this affinity with the historical fact that Indian children were forced to convert and tell me how I should feel? Happy? Joyful? Alright?

No, Chewbacca, I would expect them to feel angry and resentful - and rightfully so. Which is exactly what I said in my original post. Since we're playing "pick the post apart" and demanding a "re-reading" of the posts, then I suggest you grant me the same courtesy. My original statement was that I understood your resentfulness towards Christianity. A sentiment you deny even though you have said "Good riddance" to these plaques that you considered "offensive" as well as unconstitutional. You say you don't resent Christianity, but your comments so far imply a different conclusion.

Whether you truly are resentful or not honostly makes no difference to me. You have made comments in the past that suggest you do feel resentment towards Christianity in general and I was merely stating that - given the history of how Native Americans were treated - I can understand why you would feel that way. That's all I was saying in my original post also.

Originally posted by Chewbacca: Your statement that I am resentful of Christianity is based on selective reasoning and words taken out of context. Do I 100% agree with Christianity? No, but not all christians agree with each other either. Has Christianity been a 100% pure force of good in the world in the last 2000 years? No. Were christians 100% tolerant of native American beliefs, culture, or religion? No.

LOL [img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img] I was talking to another member this afternoon and mentioned this thread. After telling them about my original post, I said "How much do you want to bet he will claim I took his words out of context?".

I'm sorry, Chewbacca, but I didn't take any of your words out of context. Even though I was only responding to the last paragraph, I deliberately quoted your entire post specifically to counter this very claim, which I knew would be made.

You're right that Christianity does not have a "spotless" history - far from it. It doesn't even have a spotless reputation in today's times. We have Rev. "God Hates Fags" Phelps going out of his way to cause misery to the bereaved families of gay people that have died. Eric Robert Rudolph and a handful of other fanatic Pro-Lifers have used lethal violence against abortion clinics and/or the doctors that work there, and Robertson, Falwell, and Oral Roberts continue to provide prime examples of over-the-top religious zealousness.

I've heard different accounts of the "forced conversion" of Native Americans. I live fairly close to the Cherokee reservation here in western NC and Murphy lies along the "Trail of Tears". The treatment of Native Americans is one of the most shameful blights on American history....there is no question about that.

Originally posted by Chewbacca: This doesn't mean I resent christianity, nor does it mean I resent Christians. This means I refuse to let history be glossed over so the mistakes and atrocities of the past will never be repeated. This means I would be offend by solely christian literature publicly displayed at a native american holy site in light of historical fact. If stating the facts means I resent christianity in your eyes, fine. Your wrong though.

And I have exhaustively listed exactly why your comments reflect an underlying resentment, but you say I am wrong. Very well. If that is the case, then I humbly apologize my misunderstanding.

Originally posted by Chewbacca: BTW- Check your facts about totem poles. http://www.npr.org/programs/morning/...tc/totempoles/ http://members.aol.com/Art1234567/Totemart.html

Thanks. I will.

[ 07-16-2003, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: Cerek the Barbaric ]