[Yorick]

Originally posted by Morgan_Corbesant: maybe you are right, maybe i went overboard with my exageration, but crime runs rampant as it is here. if we have absolutely NO way to defend ourselves, then it will only get worse. Europe doesnt have the crime that America does. yes, we are free, but that doesnt make us safe. if you take away our guns, then you take away our security. its that simple. America has been a country for over 200 years, and we have always had guns. if you take that away, then America is no longer America, just as if you took away freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc. its a right, a given right, and an earned one. guns DONT kill people, its the people wielding them. lets say that guns WERE outlawed, and we'll go as far as to say that criminals dont have them either. then they will use knives, bats, rocks, sticks, or their bare hands. criminals will continue to plague our country until we enact stricter and harsher punishments. to hell with prison, all that does is give them three hots and a cot, and runs billions of dollars a year. i say if you rape, murder, torture, etc, you die. plain and simple, if you are convicted, you go straight from the courthouse to your deathbed, dont waste time, with which they will use to appeal, and end up getting out to kill, rape, maim, torture, etc. again. if someone steals, cut off their damn thumbs, im sure it wont happen again. am i strict? yes. am i fair? yes.will it happen? i seriously doubt it. taking away a weapon does nothing. PEOPLE commit crimes. true, guns make it easier, but they make it easier for me to DEFEND myself too. so i have NO weapon at all, because im a liberal democrat who thinks it wrong. suddenly, some guy comes at me with a knife, and i either lose my sense of well being, or pull a .40 calibre pistol out, put it in his mouth, and make him kiss the ground, hands behind his back, and i make a citizens arrest. (i know, its extreme, but im proving a point) the fact is, that people always act out against those they presume to be weak. if we have no way of defense, we are all weak. the police cant be everywhere at once. in the time it takes that police officer to respond to the call,that criminal can already pull the club, knife, gun, etc., kill me, and get away. we can what if this until we are blue in the face. i see where you are all coming from though. no guns equals no gun related crimes. well, you are WRONG!!! in california, it is illegal to own a fully automatic weapon, unless you have a class 3 firearms license, and all guns you buy go through the ATF, and a complete and thourough background check is conducted. yet, there are criminals that have AK47's, Mac-10's, TEC-9's, and in some instances, MP5's (my personal favorite). they have these guns, ILLEGALY, and they would if guns were completely banned. of course then they would only need pistols, and not machineguns, sub-machineguns, rifles, etc. if i were to take a fully loaded m16 with me to the middle ages of Europe, and start shooting at armored knights, im sure i can change the whole course of the battle. its the same if you outlaw guns here. sure, we'll have knives, but like Hitler in WW2, he had better guns, and the like, and he conqoured the majority of europe. same problem, different scenario. if guns are outlawed, i will take all of mine, and live in the mountains somewhere, all alone (well, ill take my wife too perhaps)and let someone take them from me then. i dont remember who said it, but there is a famous quote, and it reads as follows, "they can have my gun, when the pry it from my cold dead finger", or something to that effect. i feel the same way. i earned my right, i served my country, i WILL own a way to protect myself. again, sorry for the spelling all.

Morgan, I have not read your posts because you have not given any paragraph breaks. It makes very difficult reading.

So, I don't know what you're saying outside of what Groljach is responding to.

Groljach, for what it's worth, I agree with you. Totally.