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05-18-2002, 08:24 AM

Cerek,

I have read through your response and am going through it all trying to understand your point of view. These are some of the thoughts that I have about what you have had to say.

First of all, I would like to discuss the event that you mentioned in the first part of your response, Adam and Eve. In your opinion, did this event ever actually occur, or is it simply a parable about man’s fall from grace? It seems that when talking to Christians, 20% say they think it’s a parable, 30% say that it definitely happened that way, as the bible says so, while the remainder say it simply doesn’t matter either way . Well, in my opinion, it matters a lot! We are not talking about whether Shakespeare did actually write the plays that we attribute to him, we’re talking about the creation of the existence of man. This goes for many other sections of the bible! Did Noah ever create an Ark and fill it with two animals from every single species that exists in the world before the flood (which is a simply ridiculous idea in my opinion) and did Jonah actually spend days inside a whale, before coming out unscathed (I don’t need to tell you what I think of that)?
OK, so if these were considered to be simply stories that portray man and God’s will, I would treat them as such, trying to interpret there actual meaning. But why would God give us his word and instructions in this form? To test out who is worthy of his kingdom? To make it more interesting for us to read? I believe that if there was a God, and he delivered a book to us, that he would place the facts above and beyond fantasy storytelling to deliver his message.
But if these stories are actually based on historical events, then I for one, find them entirely beyond all realistic belief. As for people being 100s of years old, well..I will leave that alone, as I sure you know what I’m getting at. As previously discussed, Christianity is based initially on Faith, but surely you need to have some part of it based directly on knowledge. If you don’t believe that one part of the Bible is actually based on truth, then you may as well throw it in the bin and forget about it.
Moving on, you say that infants and children are not held accountable for their sinful nature because they can’t comprehend all the implications of that concept. As far as I can see, if Christianity is correct, then life is really just a big test. A very small period of time, where we either accept God and then move on to the real deal, eternity in heaven…or don’t accept God, and move on to Hell for eternal damnation. This being the case, shouldn’t everyone be subjected to the same test? It seems a little unfair that a child who dies at the age of 3, gets a free ticket into Eternity with God in Heaven, whereas I, just because I lived to a particular age of reason, are subjected to the test! Further to this, Christians will suggest to me that if a 3 year old dies, that it was in fact God’s will. This makes the whole suggestion even more unreasonable, as God has hand-picked that child for his Kingdom. I for one would feel ripped off if this was the case, and since God does not favour any individual above another, it's simply not in the script. Perhaps I should hope that my child dies before they come of age! That way I can assure their passage into heaven! I’m sure you realise that I would not actually think that way, but the point still stands.

You said in your post "Christianity DOES require faith and God DOES give us evidence of His existence. But faith has to be in place first before you will attribute the evidence to God. Otherwise, you will ascribe it to natural, scientific processes."

What you have stated above is exactly why I struggle to believe. Christianity requires faith! You say that God gives us evidence, but unless we have faith, we will attribute it to more logical conclusions. Christians say all the time! “Look around you at all of nature. Do you really think that it could all come about without the help of a creator.” Quite frankly, YES! Just because we struggle to comprehend how amazing nature is, does not mean we just attribute it to some sort of higher being’s creation. The evidence of God’s existence is only considered evidence, once you already have faith. Well how can you have real faith, without any evidence whatsoever. I know that I simply cannot do that. It’s one thing to say I want to believe in God now because I want to be saved, but it’s another thing completely to actually BELIEVE! You cannot make yourself have any belief otherwise you are just deluding yourself.

You also said "Also, once you accept Jesus Christ and are filled with the Holy Spirit, the Bible becomes MUCH easier to understand. Until then, I agree that it is VERY difficult to decipher."

Well that’s really helpful isn’t it. Just say I’m going to read the bible so I can learn about God’s word, and then maybe I will ask for forgiveness if it makes sense to me. But then you say that the bible only really makes sense, once you have already asked for forgiveness.

You also said "He loves us enough to risk losing those who choose not to accept Him. The loss saddens Him deeply, but He loves us too much to force blind obediance."

I’m sorry Cerek, but this one doesn’t make any sense to me at all. God loves us SOOO much, that he doesn’t force us to go to heaven to enjoy eternity of pleasure, he gives us an excellent opportunity to go to Hell. I really find it hard to see how that proves his love for us.

Finally, you said "I have ALWAYS considered myself to be Christian. I was raised in a Christian home and I've gone to church since I was a child"

I could have guessed that you were raised in a Christian home. Please don’t take offense to this Cerek, but it seems that 90% of the Christians I have met in my life, have at least one parent that can be considered a Christian. Being brought up in a Christian family seems to make it very hard for an individual to consider that their parents could be wrong. I know I am making a pretty large generalisation, but from my experience, this seems to be true. I feel that having something drummed into you during the early fragile years of life can have an enormous effect on the views of an individual.

Anyway, I’m becoming more and more cynical as this post goes on, so I’m going to stop for now. I don’t wish to put anybody down in any way, but I just don’t understand. Obviously I am trying, but there are simply to many holes and unanswered questions for me to even consider becoming a Christian at this time.

Aviendha.

I'm sorry if I seem aggressive and rude! I'm not trying to be!

05-18-2002, 08:24 AM	#100
lroyo Guest Posts: n/a	Cerek, I have read through your response and am going through it all trying to understand your point of view. These are some of the thoughts that I have about what you have had to say. First of all, I would like to discuss the event that you mentioned in the first part of your response, Adam and Eve. In your opinion, did this event ever actually occur, or is it simply a parable about man’s fall from grace? It seems that when talking to Christians, 20% say they think it’s a parable, 30% say that it definitely happened that way, as the bible says so, while the remainder say it simply doesn’t matter either way . Well, in my opinion, it matters a lot! We are not talking about whether Shakespeare did actually write the plays that we attribute to him, we’re talking about the creation of the existence of man. This goes for many other sections of the bible! Did Noah ever create an Ark and fill it with two animals from every single species that exists in the world before the flood (which is a simply ridiculous idea in my opinion) and did Jonah actually spend days inside a whale, before coming out unscathed (I don’t need to tell you what I think of that)? OK, so if these were considered to be simply stories that portray man and God’s will, I would treat them as such, trying to interpret there actual meaning. But why would God give us his word and instructions in this form? To test out who is worthy of his kingdom? To make it more interesting for us to read? I believe that if there was a God, and he delivered a book to us, that he would place the facts above and beyond fantasy storytelling to deliver his message. But if these stories are actually based on historical events, then I for one, find them entirely beyond all realistic belief. As for people being 100s of years old, well..I will leave that alone, as I sure you know what I’m getting at. As previously discussed, Christianity is based initially on Faith, but surely you need to have some part of it based directly on knowledge. If you don’t believe that one part of the Bible is actually based on truth, then you may as well throw it in the bin and forget about it. Moving on, you say that infants and children are not held accountable for their sinful nature because they can’t comprehend all the implications of that concept. As far as I can see, if Christianity is correct, then life is really just a big test. A very small period of time, where we either accept God and then move on to the real deal, eternity in heaven…or don’t accept God, and move on to Hell for eternal damnation. This being the case, shouldn’t everyone be subjected to the same test? It seems a little unfair that a child who dies at the age of 3, gets a free ticket into Eternity with God in Heaven, whereas I, just because I lived to a particular age of reason, are subjected to the test! Further to this, Christians will suggest to me that if a 3 year old dies, that it was in fact God’s will. This makes the whole suggestion even more unreasonable, as God has hand-picked that child for his Kingdom. I for one would feel ripped off if this was the case, and since God does not favour any individual above another, it's simply not in the script. Perhaps I should hope that my child dies before they come of age! That way I can assure their passage into heaven! I’m sure you realise that I would not actually think that way, but the point still stands. You said in your post "Christianity DOES require faith and God DOES give us evidence of His existence. But faith has to be in place first before you will attribute the evidence to God. Otherwise, you will ascribe it to natural, scientific processes." What you have stated above is exactly why I struggle to believe. Christianity requires faith! You say that God gives us evidence, but unless we have faith, we will attribute it to more logical conclusions. Christians say all the time! “Look around you at all of nature. Do you really think that it could all come about without the help of a creator.” Quite frankly, YES! Just because we struggle to comprehend how amazing nature is, does not mean we just attribute it to some sort of higher being’s creation. The evidence of God’s existence is only considered evidence, once you already have faith. Well how can you have real faith, without any evidence whatsoever. I know that I simply cannot do that. It’s one thing to say I want to believe in God now because I want to be saved, but it’s another thing completely to actually BELIEVE! You cannot make yourself have any belief otherwise you are just deluding yourself. You also said "Also, once you accept Jesus Christ and are filled with the Holy Spirit, the Bible becomes MUCH easier to understand. Until then, I agree that it is VERY difficult to decipher." Well that’s really helpful isn’t it. Just say I’m going to read the bible so I can learn about God’s word, and then maybe I will ask for forgiveness if it makes sense to me. But then you say that the bible only really makes sense, once you have already asked for forgiveness. You also said "He loves us enough to risk losing those who choose not to accept Him. The loss saddens Him deeply, but He loves us too much to force blind obediance." I’m sorry Cerek, but this one doesn’t make any sense to me at all. God loves us SOOO much, that he doesn’t force us to go to heaven to enjoy eternity of pleasure, he gives us an excellent opportunity to go to Hell. I really find it hard to see how that proves his love for us. Finally, you said "I have ALWAYS considered myself to be Christian. I was raised in a Christian home and I've gone to church since I was a child" I could have guessed that you were raised in a Christian home. Please don’t take offense to this Cerek, but it seems that 90% of the Christians I have met in my life, have at least one parent that can be considered a Christian. Being brought up in a Christian family seems to make it very hard for an individual to consider that their parents could be wrong. I know I am making a pretty large generalisation, but from my experience, this seems to be true. I feel that having something drummed into you during the early fragile years of life can have an enormous effect on the views of an individual. Anyway, I’m becoming more and more cynical as this post goes on, so I’m going to stop for now. I don’t wish to put anybody down in any way, but I just don’t understand. Obviously I am trying, but there are simply to many holes and unanswered questions for me to even consider becoming a Christian at this time. Aviendha. I'm sorry if I seem aggressive and rude! I'm not trying to be!