Fjlotsdale, I've been working long hours and am waiting in Singapore centre for a party (in a cybercafe) so I don't have those exact verses for you, but I do have an argument.
Jesus entire being and all he did - in fact the entire reason why Christians follow him - is centred around his being God, being one with God. "I and the father are one" he said (now misinterpreted by "New" Age thought as being a statement supporting oneness with everything. However he never said "We and the father are one" nor "You and the father are one.)
The reason for his being was to die and offer humanity a clean slate, enabling relationship with God, with himself. He did not say much - around eleven central themes in all. Though his teachings alter radically human nature (turn the other cheek, love your enemy, and let he who is innocent of sin caste the first stone etc) and only worked in his healing ministry for three years the impact of his life on history is because he died.
People die all the time do they not? The Romans executed thousands upon thousands of people on crosses. No doubt there were many lunatics (still are) who proclaim themselves to be God. Jesus was different, he managed to convince his closest friends - even his mother - that he was the son of God, that he and God were one.
It is only the concept of God becoming human, taking some of the worst things that can happen to a human - horrific torture, abandonment, mistrial, death by suffocation and fatal betrayal - that gives the event its significance. Without it he is a failure. People do not follow loosers for long. Certainly not 2000 years.
There is much I could write on this as it is so central to my life, but I shall move on to the Spirit - which first appears at the aforementioned baptism. The bible describes an event at the time which culminates in the Spirit decending like a dove upon Jesus (one reason Christians use the symbol). Jesus later mentions the Spirit as a "helper" which would be with them after his passing, which indicates the Spirit as a separate entity (as seperate as one of a Trinity can be) from either him or God.
Pentecost is mentioned in Acts as the time when the Holy Spirit entered the disciples. Whatever the actual event, the result in the lives of those who claimed it's presence in them has left a mark on history. A small group of scared witless men and women who had just seen their mentor die, appear again and along with 500 others shoot off to the heavens were practically overnight transformed into bold, eloquent individuals who risked, and suffered, death by spreading the word throughout the Empire.
I discussed thsi very facet with a good friend of mine only today. I was taking the line that a lot of what Christ said made sense after the last "act". Sort of like understanding a film once it has finished, while my friend argued that it was more to do with the arrival of the Holy Spirit. Despite Peters proclaimations that Jesus "truly" was the "son of God", he didn't "get it" even when Jesus was willingly arrested in the garden of Gethsemane. He even denied knowing Jesus outside the trial. The same man was instrumental in founding the Church, especially in Jerusalem and is considered in Roman Catholic circles as the first Pope.
Acts describes the Spirit manifesting in all those present with a sudden ability to communicate in foriegn languages. Dialect speakers heard their languages spoken, despite the new speaker never venturing to the dialects region of origin.
The bible also mentions the fruits of the spirit as being patience, hope, joy, peace, kindness, gentleness and love.
The fact that the bible mentions the Spirit rather than Jesus or God indicates that the concept of another independent facet of the creator is indeed biblical, just as Jesus claim of being one with God - whether you accept it or not - is also biblical.
The word "Trinity" is indeed absent from the bible, but even in the old testament, God uses the word "we".
The concept figures God to be omnipresent. The "Father" being the original entity, the Son being the entity as it existed on the planet in human form, and the Spirit the entity that exists in individuals today. The Spirit, to believers is quite "feelable". One can feel his presence, and departure - as loopy as that may sound to an unbeliever. I would hope that those that have read my posts and met me would back me up when I suggest I am a rational being that does not radiate a lack of reason or coherant thought...... guys?
However the Holy Spirit is the part of God that gives strength for a task, peace during turmoil, patience during resistance and joy when approaching despair. It is the part of God that dwells in me resultant from that "little prayer" that gets so overly thrown around in some churches.
The Trinity is a way of conceptualising the differing known aspects of an omnipresent creator awareness. It is no different to regarding Ice, water and steam as seperate despite containing the same ingredients. The differing temperatures, or environments create a different manifestation.
An orange - skin, juice, pulp is another common simile drawn.
Bugger, I really have to go Fjlotsdale. I'm not finished, and haven't proofread this, but feel free to respond in the meantime.
Cloudy, thanks for your encouragement, but I like the way you repsond to things like this. You bring a totally different flavour than I to such a discussion, and I would never want you to feel you couldn't contribute.
This is a message board, and not an email discussion after all
Oh finally, I typed this without my glasses, so I hope there aren't many errors. Byeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 06-21-2001).]