[Klutz]

Originally posted by TinyMage: The speed is not neccessarily for going first ( which is also nice ). It is for the extra attacks. Strength + speed are the primary attributes for a melee party hands down, the strength provides damage + to hit and penetration and the speed provides the attacks.

Both Dexterity and Speed provide extra attacks, and any combatant wants both. The question is which to max first. For combatants the answer, IMHO, is almost always Dexterity, because its secondary benefits (improved melee and ranged chance to hit & penetrate) are better than Speed's (improved initiative). Then add in the fact that Speed is far easier to buff than Dexterity.

Originally posted by TinyMage: quote: Originally posted by Klutz: The Martial Arts using Monk is, in fact, the 3rd most powerful melee combat damage-dealer in Wiz8, behind only the backstabbing Rogue (#2) and the berserking Fighter (#1).

So your saying it can beat someone with the light sword ( 5 - 40 damage and 10% kill ) or excalibur or even the zotaichi bo?

Even if you could match the damage you can't match the effects or % to kill.
[/QUOTE]

Originally posted by TinyMage: When does the monk become the "3rd most powerful melee combat damage-dealer" ????? What level? What stats?

The above comparison is for combat performance at high levels on Ascension Peak with all the best items available to the various classes. So yes, that is also MA Monk > Cane of Corpus Faerie Ninja. Say 100 STR/DEX/SPD, with haste as necessary for all characters that need it, but it's really the STR and Martial Arts skills that matter.
There's a lot of factors that combine to make the Monk so effective:

- Effortless, fully effective dual wield: The MA monk will be at least 2/3 / 2/3 on Ascension Peak, for an average of 8 and max of 12 martial arts attacks per round. (I've never seen 3/3 / 3/3 myself, since I've never hit 125% on Martial Arts with my Monks, but since I've seen 3/3 for a Valkyrie and Samurai with 125% in their weapon skills that should be possible for a Monk also, which would be an average of 12 and max of 18 attacks per round!) And remember, those "secondary" attacks for a Monk are exactly as powerful as their primary attacks.

- Relative weakness of all other combatant's secondary weapons: Yes, the Light Sword and Cane of Corpus are incredible, and the Muramasa Blade is nice too, but the best secondary weapons (Wakizashi +1, Rod of Sprites) are far worse. The notable exceptions are the Thieves Dagger and Diamond Eyes, which help the Rogue and Fighter perform better in combination with their special combat abilities.

- Relative weakness of two-handed weapons: Excalibur, Zatoichi Bo, Faust Halberd, Dread Spear, Stun/Mindblast Rod, Giant Sword, and Staff of Doom all pale in comparison with the top one-handed weapons like the Light Sword and Cane of Corpus. The Staff of Doom is generally considered the best of that group with its 15% kill (same as Cane of Corpus and Muramasa Blade), and for raw damage the Giant Sword is good.

- The Monk gets status effects too: Monk's get up to 5% kill for 100% in Critical Strike (1% base + 1% for each 25 in Critical Strike is the formula I usually see), and Monks also get a chance to KO. I have no clue what the formula is for Monk KO chance, but at high levels it works pretty often. (Probably some combination of Martial Arts skill and strength score.)

Originally posted by TinyMage: Maybe the site I was looking at is wrong, but I understand you only gain 8.5 ( 10.6 for monk ) damage with maxed unarmed skill. I don't see how that beats any halfway decent weapon.

I've never found any site that accurately lists martial arts damage; I go by my own experience and what I've read here and on other Wiz8 boards. If I saw it on Flamestryke's or Rick Rust's sites I'd believe it.

Originally posted by TinyMage: However, once I got to arnika and gave the samurai bloodlust, the samurai quickly made the monk look inferior. He was regularly doing 30+ damage while the monk was only doing 10. Also bloodlust gives an extra attack.

As you have discovered, Bloodlust is an absolutely INSANELY powerful weapon for the early-mid game. If you could give it to your Bishop, the Bishop would have the most kills. It's that good. Which is too bad, because it basically makes the Bushido Blade obsolete. I typically don't replace it until I get Fang, and even Fang is only a little bit better than Bloodlust for most characters that can use both. And if you think Bloodlust is great on your Samurai, try it on a Rogue... though in my parties it's usually the Bard that gets it (using songs for ranged combat as needed).

Originally posted by TinyMage: Seems more likely the people that rate the unarmed monk higher aren't using their other characters properly.

*chuckle* I like to think I can build a Wiz8 combat character pretty decently, though I'm not as persistent at reloading for perfect equipment as some. (I do make an exception for the Light Sword.) But again, I'm not making any of this up: I'm just regurgitating what I've read on this and other boards, adding in my own experience which matches up. I've never done any actual damage "testing" myself, but I always build my hybrids (and Bards) for combat and the Martial Arts Monk (when I use one) always outperforms them by the end.

Not to say I haven't made mistakes. My first Fighter, despite being a basic Lizardman Fighter, was awful: he tried to learn too many different weapons (Dagger, Sword, Mace, Dual Wield, Bow/Xbow) and hence was always behind other characters on weapon skills. My first Monk, though, was even worse: she was a Faerie with maxed INT and SPD first to try to get good spellcasting over good melee. It worked to an extent, but delaying STR so long meant that she barely broke 50 STR towards the end of the game.

Don't forget when doing your own comparisons to watch for the initiative effect. The Light Sword and Bloodlust have incredibly high initiative bonuses, so if you often fight small or spread-out groups, your Monk may not have anything left to fight after your high-initiative sword-wielder gets to go first. Attribute distribution can have the same effect to a lesser extent.

Anyway, have fun all, Monks or not!