Quote:
Originally posted by sultan:
quote:
Originally posted by EEWorzelle:
It is horrible advice, IMHO, to tell a new player to repeat characters in their party.
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oh, eew, how do we get into these discussions? particularly since they are off-topic for the thread at hand...
[/QUOTE]Interesting. I'm kind of surprised you found my comments to be off topic here (although I am often "guilty" of that when a thread drifts into a divergent but interesting area - it's the nature of discussion, I guess).
Cataephract, early in this thread gave the advice:
Quote:
Originally posted by Cataephract:
Beginner's party:
3 fighters, 1 bard, a priest, and a mage
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Advice like this, with repeated characters is also given as a "great party for beginners" on the VN boards, from time to time.
It's a rotten trick to play on a player new to Wizardry 8. They buy this game, thinking they are going to have a great time, but instead find the combats boring and repetitive.
Those who give this advice for beginning players rarely, if ever, actually played a party like that (it wasn't the first party for those posting that advice on the VN boards). I have seen several times, where players naively and trustingly, thinking that those of us who advise have their fun at heart, take that advice. Some, after they play through the entire game like that, come back and report not having much fun. I don't blame them. It is very rare to see people who actually play the entire Wizardry 8 game that were bored, but I have seen it in this case. I'm not talking about the players that hit Arnika road and quit for a variety of reasons.
There is an arrogance among some Players (I'm not talking about you, Sultan, as far as I know), that makes them think they can handle all sorts of variety of characters, weapons and even strategies, but that other players new to the game are too stupid or ignorant to do so. There is no reason to expect that the smartest players who will ever play this game have already played it. It is insulting and demeaning to the new player to suggest to them that they should stick to only one type of character in the front line (for example), when they are starting out. Did you? Even if easy is desired, there are many easy parties in the game, with lots of variety.
Yes I love the variety of characters in this game, and the way they can all be powerful if developed well, but my comments were unselfishly on behalf of the new player, based upon evidence I have seen of new players getting bored with the game when actually taking such advice and playing parties like that. Many of us who keep playing Wizardry 8 have played lots of parties, so if one is a bummer or boring, no big deal. A lot of RPG players out there, however, will not change parties, and will finish the game with their first one. If they only play it for a few levels, it hardly matters but the whole game, it does.
When advice like that is given to new players that is likely to hurt their enjoyment of the game, that is simply mean. I can easily be wrong in any post, but do my best to communicate truth and feel it is important, relevant and worth posting in this case, to any new player actually considering taking that advice. This thread is about party ideas and my post is no more off topic than the previous post which gave, IMHO, the bad advice for the beginning player.
Now I hope nobody jumps to the conclusion that I am claiming repeated characters are always a bad idea or are not fun. I didn't say that and am claiming no such thing. I am talking about the intelligent and capable beginner (i.e. any beginner) who, wisely or unwisely, might come to this very board or another looking for suggestions for their party. For example, I have no disagreement with allstargoaly's post that CT also followed up on. Sounds like fun. The best Ranged-Party ideas I have ever seen (by GreaterDemon on the VN boards) had some repeated characters. Beginners may certainly choose a party such as one of those, and that's great. That's very different than what I am suggesting is mean.
Finally, I don't mean to pick on Cataephract, even though I disagree with most of the conclusions. I actually recognize a lot of my own advice for Bard and Alchemist development (by coincidence or reuse - it doesn't matter).
The advice for the beginner theatens new players fun, however, and is important. It probably isn't meant viciously and is probably just repeating what somebody else posted. I think if a party is going to be recommended to a new player that the one doing the recommending ought to have played it through to the end and attest that they had a great time doing so. Then recommend it.
[ 10-12-2003, 11:28 PM: Message edited by: EEWorzelle ]