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EEWorzelle · 09-08-2003, 12:02 PM

Regarding the proposal to use an editor, Malach, there's nothing fundamentally wrong with it, if it is fun.

There a "Dogbert" (Dilbert) cartoon where the dog (!?) puts the cards in various piles, moves them around, then declares himself the winner.

"That was amazingly satisfying," is what he says.

Similarly, using the editor to change the game and characters can be satisfying. If there is actually a way to do that with stability, without inadvertently breaking anything, and there is a way to label these and distribute them... what we would have is mods, which would be very cool.

The designers in this game did not intend to support mods, however, so code can, and probably does, make assumptions that will break this.

Editing the game to make the character of ones dreams (or using training/tricks for that matter), throws off the balance, makes the game easier, and one has to ask what they are really doing or trying to accomplish. If the answer is "fun," and what they do with an editor is, in fact, fun, then I say go for it.

In my personal view, the limitations of the game give it character. The dwarf is a consumate defensive character in a game system that rewards offense. Make a Lord with Iron Will, Iron Skin and you have a character tough to kill. However, the creatures in this game can easily kill "tough to kill" characters, unless they are killed first.

I think the Dwarf can excell in parties, perhaps small ones, when there is little time for casting defenses in the heat of battle and the characters, due to choice of battle tactics, must sometimes be able to stand up to 20-40 rounds.

For character creation in general, if one is forced to ignore a race's strengths, and has to try to patch more than one of its weaknesses, then that race is probably a bad choice for one's character. With the Dwarf, IMO, at least two of it's low capabilities need to turn high. However when there are two, that need to change, but just that, it might still be just barely possible to do something effective.

Ironically, a slow Mage is possible. With a minimum Intelligence of 60 and Dexterity of 55, that uses up 50 of the 60 Bonus points right there, but that extra ten bonus points can be used to make Intelligence 62, Dexterity 58 and then, at level-up one can increase those two. That would allow effective use of a Sling and/or Staff. Eagle Eye is out of reach but Dexterity and that good starting Strength will help To Hit and Attack Rating a lot. Powercast will obtained at Level 12, which is a little later then optimum, but not too bad. The extra Hit Points and resistance will be very welcome.

Similarly, an Alchemist is possible, but since starting Intelligence is 55 (after bonus usage) and there are still only 10 Bonus points to distribute due to Dexterity of 60), that means Powercast at Level 14 (Or can one distribute 4/10 instead of just 3/10 to Intelligence? I don't remember, and am not with the game at the moment. That would make it possible to get Powercast at Level 13, a big difference). This one might work better in a smaller party, where there are more levels (and so Powercast is gotten earlier in the game and has longer to rise).

Both of these ideas use the fact that Profession minimums boost stats that can then be boosted further with any remaining Bonus Points. In the first case Intelligence is raised by 32, or over half of the Bonus Points. In both of these, two weaknesses (Intelligence, Dexterity) are directly turned around into strengths, with a little to spare to boost them further. Thus, in general, when a race is excellent in everything you want, except what the profession you need has a high minimum in, that can turn out excellent, if there are still some Bonus Points to distribute). When there are two weaknesses that must change, however, like the case of the Dwarf, there will probably be no or very few extra Bonus points to distribute, and it becomes tougher.

If the Ranger had no Intelligence requirement, blowing off magic entirely, that would work too, but it does and would leave no Bonus Points to distribute for a Dwarf Ranger. It is still possible to do that, I guess. A fighter is possible, but Close and Ranged Combat would suffer (with both Senses and Intelligence low), same deal goes for a Lord.

I would guess, Malach, that this would be an example of what you were saying. One could, if it was stable, use an editor to go ahead and give your starting Dwarf Ranger, as an example, Intelligence of 30, Dexterity and Senses of 61 (after putting 6 of the 20 remaining Bonus Points in each) and put the other 8 points somewhere (Strength, Speed). If possible, it would let you to try something reasonable, that would be possible in the game if the rules were only slightly different.

I guess when I think of the Dwarf character (ala LOTR) I think of axes, which are also very weak in this game.

[ 09-08-2003, 04:43 PM: Message edited by: EEWorzelle ]

09-08-2003, 12:02 PM	#4
EEWorzelle Manshoon Join Date: October 25, 2002 Location: Gilbert, Az Age: 73 Posts: 234	Regarding the proposal to use an editor, Malach, there's nothing fundamentally wrong with it, if it is fun. There a "Dogbert" (Dilbert) cartoon where the dog (!?) puts the cards in various piles, moves them around, then declares himself the winner. "That was amazingly satisfying," is what he says. Similarly, using the editor to change the game and characters can be satisfying. If there is actually a way to do that with stability, without inadvertently breaking anything, and there is a way to label these and distribute them... what we would have is mods, which would be very cool. The designers in this game did not intend to support mods, however, so code can, and probably does, make assumptions that will break this. Editing the game to make the character of ones dreams (or using training/tricks for that matter), throws off the balance, makes the game easier, and one has to ask what they are really doing or trying to accomplish. If the answer is "fun," and what they do with an editor is, in fact, fun, then I say go for it. In my personal view, the limitations of the game give it character. The dwarf is a consumate defensive character in a game system that rewards offense. Make a Lord with Iron Will, Iron Skin and you have a character tough to kill. However, the creatures in this game can easily kill "tough to kill" characters, unless they are killed first. I think the Dwarf can excell in parties, perhaps small ones, when there is little time for casting defenses in the heat of battle and the characters, due to choice of battle tactics, must sometimes be able to stand up to 20-40 rounds. For character creation in general, if one is forced to ignore a race's strengths, and has to try to patch more than one of its weaknesses, then that race is probably a bad choice for one's character. With the Dwarf, IMO, at least two of it's low capabilities need to turn high. However when there are two, that need to change, but just that, it might still be just barely possible to do something effective. Ironically, a slow Mage is possible. With a minimum Intelligence of 60 and Dexterity of 55, that uses up 50 of the 60 Bonus points right there, but that extra ten bonus points can be used to make Intelligence 62, Dexterity 58 and then, at level-up one can increase those two. That would allow effective use of a Sling and/or Staff. Eagle Eye is out of reach but Dexterity and that good starting Strength will help To Hit and Attack Rating a lot. Powercast will obtained at Level 12, which is a little later then optimum, but not too bad. The extra Hit Points and resistance will be very welcome. Similarly, an Alchemist is possible, but since starting Intelligence is 55 (after bonus usage) and there are still only 10 Bonus points to distribute due to Dexterity of 60), that means Powercast at Level 14 (Or can one distribute 4/10 instead of just 3/10 to Intelligence? I don't remember, and am not with the game at the moment. That would make it possible to get Powercast at Level 13, a big difference). This one might work better in a smaller party, where there are more levels (and so Powercast is gotten earlier in the game and has longer to rise). Both of these ideas use the fact that Profession minimums boost stats that can then be boosted further with any remaining Bonus Points. In the first case Intelligence is raised by 32, or over half of the Bonus Points. In both of these, two weaknesses (Intelligence, Dexterity) are directly turned around into strengths, with a little to spare to boost them further. Thus, in general, when a race is excellent in everything you want, except what the profession you need has a high minimum in, that can turn out excellent, if there are still some Bonus Points to distribute). When there are two weaknesses that must change, however, like the case of the Dwarf, there will probably be no or very few extra Bonus points to distribute, and it becomes tougher. If the Ranger had no Intelligence requirement, blowing off magic entirely, that would work too, but it does and would leave no Bonus Points to distribute for a Dwarf Ranger. It is still possible to do that, I guess. A fighter is possible, but Close and Ranged Combat would suffer (with both Senses and Intelligence low), same deal goes for a Lord. I would guess, Malach, that this would be an example of what you were saying. One could, if it was stable, use an editor to go ahead and give your starting Dwarf Ranger, as an example, Intelligence of 30, Dexterity and Senses of 61 (after putting 6 of the 20 remaining Bonus Points in each) and put the other 8 points somewhere (Strength, Speed). If possible, it would let you to try something reasonable, that would be possible in the game if the rules were only slightly different. I guess when I think of the Dwarf character (ala LOTR) I think of axes, which are also very weak in this game. [ 09-08-2003, 04:43 PM: Message edited by: EEWorzelle ]