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ScottG · 08-21-2003, 12:09 AM

I just had a nice explanation all written out and the browser craped-out on me.

Well the short of it is this....

Sorry about the format - my writing can be somewhat obtuse at times.

you (EE) wrote: "It is only when it becomes advice that it ought to be fact, or, if not, at least labeled as the way things "might" work."

I'd have to strongly disagree with this statement. This is an informal gaming forum, and as such the overwhelming emphasis is opinion through persuasive writing. There really is no need for me, you, or others to apply a caveat or state: "this is my opinion, it is not fact" or some derivation thereof. Opinion here is implied. Only things that are intended to be stated as facts, should be stated as such....(or it should be obvious from what is written, like a detailed accounting of events, or a quote, etc.).

That said...

I'm fairly certain what you are seeing is not penetration with regard to a hit calculation, instead it is penetration with regard to damage. For instance, assume you have a Ninja attacking a Granite Golem with a simple throwing dagger. Now the Ninja is using a "thrown weapon" and the manual states:

"The Ninja can also kill from a distance, throwing objects with such accuracy that they always penetrate the opponent's armor.."

The words "accuracy" and "opponents armor" clearly suggest that the "auto-penetration" feature is referencing the ability to hit an opponent. Furthermore the word "always" strongly suggests that it is an over-ride to a hit calculation. In otherwords a Ninja throwing a weapon will not have to determine if it hits the opponent or not - it automatically hits the opponent. So continuing on with our example the Ninja will hit the Granite Golem despite its enormous AC, (regardless of level or skills such as throwing weapons and ranged combat). (No doubt however that this is a class specific feature - meaning that the character's present class must be a Ninja for this automatic hit.) HOWEVER, the Ninja will in all probability fail to "penetrate" (as stated in the verbose messages) the Granite Golem because the Golem has a damage reduction feature and because in all probability the simple throwing dagger will not provide enough damage to overcome the damage reduction. Functionally then on that "swing" it would work out something like: hit; damage = 5 vs. damage resist of 10 = "no penetration". The interesting thing here is that while the Ninja (or any critcal skill character or device) may not be able to penetrate a target for the sake of damage, it can still critical a target (and yup, I've seen it happen).

[ 08-21-2003, 03:40 AM: Message edited by: ScottG ]

08-21-2003, 12:09 AM	#19
ScottG Drow Warrior Join Date: June 13, 2003 Location: Never Never Land Age: 55 Posts: 267	I just had a nice explanation all written out and the browser craped-out on me. Well the short of it is this.... Sorry about the format - my writing can be somewhat obtuse at times. you (EE) wrote: "It is only when it becomes advice that it ought to be fact, or, if not, at least labeled as the way things "might" work." I'd have to strongly disagree with this statement. This is an informal gaming forum, and as such the overwhelming emphasis is opinion through persuasive writing. There really is no need for me, you, or others to apply a caveat or state: "this is my opinion, it is not fact" or some derivation thereof. Opinion here is implied. Only things that are intended to be stated as facts, should be stated as such....(or it should be obvious from what is written, like a detailed accounting of events, or a quote, etc.). That said... I'm fairly certain what you are seeing is not penetration with regard to a hit calculation, instead it is penetration with regard to damage. For instance, assume you have a Ninja attacking a Granite Golem with a simple throwing dagger. Now the Ninja is using a "thrown weapon" and the manual states: "The Ninja can also kill from a distance, throwing objects with such accuracy that they always penetrate the opponent's armor.." The words "accuracy" and "opponents armor" clearly suggest that the "auto-penetration" feature is referencing the ability to hit an opponent. Furthermore the word "always" strongly suggests that it is an over-ride to a hit calculation. In otherwords a Ninja throwing a weapon will not have to determine if it hits the opponent or not - it automatically hits the opponent. So continuing on with our example the Ninja will hit the Granite Golem despite its enormous AC, (regardless of level or skills such as throwing weapons and ranged combat). (No doubt however that this is a class specific feature - meaning that the character's present class must be a Ninja for this automatic hit.) HOWEVER, the Ninja will in all probability fail to "penetrate" (as stated in the verbose messages) the Granite Golem because the Golem has a damage reduction feature and because in all probability the simple throwing dagger will not provide enough damage to overcome the damage reduction. Functionally then on that "swing" it would work out something like: hit; damage = 5 vs. damage resist of 10 = "no penetration". The interesting thing here is that while the Ninja (or any critcal skill character or device) may not be able to penetrate a target for the sake of damage, it can still critical a target (and yup, I've seen it happen). [ 08-21-2003, 03:40 AM: Message edited by: ScottG ]