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ScottG · 08-20-2003, 12:15 AM

Ironmaster your right on about the lack of data for the game. As for the critical thing vs. the weapons - there really are not that many weapons that have 10% in critical (and VERY few that have more than this amount), so it is not as bad as it seems. The real problem with criticals is that your critical ability not only depends on your critical kill number (or the rangers ranged attack number), but it also seems to depend heavily on the attribute Senses. When I said that criticals "felt" like they were achieving 10% this is ONLY in conjunciton with a 100 in Senses. (You didn't bring it up before so I didn't.) In fact it feels like Senses determines your upper limit on your critical capability (i.e. 50 in Senses and your max is 5%, 60 and your max is 6%, etc. provided you have 100 in Critical Strike). This then means that you have to "plow in" points to Senses which results in having fewer points to distribute to your hit attributes (str. and dex.) - and if you can't hit then you won't get a chance for a Critical!

Critical hits are a cool gimmick, in most instances you should never rely on them. Lets say however that you have not only a maxed senses and critical skill, but also a weapon with additional critical capability. For a ranged attack this works quite well because damage is less than melee and presumably your ranged character is not in a position to be attacked via melee (they are protected from massive damage and you have spent your attribute points on senses instead of vitality). Alternativly your critical attack character is a melee attacker but again you have spent no additional points on vitality (so they are weak in melee) - HOWEVER this can work if your (using weapon(s) with additional critical capability) AND this character is a stealth class character (with maxed stealth), AND at least one other character exposed to melee attack and has no stealth capability. For this melee type of character then you are ruling out a Samurai unless they have taken a level in Rogue for the Stealth skill. (Hmmm, roleplaying-wise that Samurai sounds like a Kensai.) Otherwise you essentially have a Monk to consider with the Staff of Doom or a Ninja with dual stilletos. Alternativly because of the enhanced number of attacks you could have a Ninja with two double-strike daggers and achieve similar results to a Ninja wielding dual stilletos.

EE's:
"Sultan and ScottG - We, like many others, have an urge to advise new and experienced players of the game, in order to enhance their fun. Those players do not want to be given complex mathematical formulas. They want to know things like, "What weapon should I use with my Valkyrie?" The formulas help those who would advise others to give correct advice not based on speculation, guesses, or only their own, limited playing experience. Not every new player wants advice, but if they do, those who give it have a natural urge to want to do it with... quality."

I really only added that extra because of Sultan's response and because it would give at least some basis for my conclusions to Ironmasters questions. Additionaly of course I think I made it very easy for Ironmaster to get specific answers to his specific questions without a lot of verbosity, (could be wrong though...was I Ironmaster?).

Hmmm, your right EE - I didn't differentiate swings vs. attacks. Like you I believe this occurs imeadiatly after the attack calculation and it would make sense that lightning strike would precede this calculation to determine the number of swings that attack.

I don't think though that there is a specific "penetration" calculation after your chance to hit - otherwise you are simply re-rolling for a chance to hit. As to wether this is a modifier or a scale deviation (or both), I don't know. Your impression seems to suggest that it is actually "tipping" the scale in that character's attack which would mean that it is a scale deviation. This view point (at least for expert skills) does make sense if indeed there is a character level vs. monster level scale deviation (and I'd say there is based on magic's ability to hit monsters higher in level). (In otherwords it doesn't make sense to change the basic structure of the rounds calculation for magic vs. physical attacks.) For the ninja's auto-penatrate (at least from the book description) it simply suggests that it is an over-ride to the hit calculation - meaning that if a thrown weapon, (not simply ranged), is used then it will always hit. Logically in this instance then during the hit calculation the engine will first check to see if its an auto-penetration and then overide all other calculations within the hit calculation, ending of course with a hit and progressing on to a critical or damage calculation for that hit.

[ 08-20-2003, 12:20 AM: Message edited by: ScottG ]

08-20-2003, 12:15 AM	#14
ScottG Drow Warrior Join Date: June 13, 2003 Location: Never Never Land Age: 55 Posts: 267	Ironmaster your right on about the lack of data for the game. As for the critical thing vs. the weapons - there really are not that many weapons that have 10% in critical (and VERY few that have more than this amount), so it is not as bad as it seems. The real problem with criticals is that your critical ability not only depends on your critical kill number (or the rangers ranged attack number), but it also seems to depend heavily on the attribute Senses. When I said that criticals "felt" like they were achieving 10% this is ONLY in conjunciton with a 100 in Senses. (You didn't bring it up before so I didn't.) In fact it feels like Senses determines your upper limit on your critical capability (i.e. 50 in Senses and your max is 5%, 60 and your max is 6%, etc. provided you have 100 in Critical Strike). This then means that you have to "plow in" points to Senses which results in having fewer points to distribute to your hit attributes (str. and dex.) - and if you can't hit then you won't get a chance for a Critical! Critical hits are a cool gimmick, in most instances you should never rely on them. Lets say however that you have not only a maxed senses and critical skill, but also a weapon with additional critical capability. For a ranged attack this works quite well because damage is less than melee and presumably your ranged character is not in a position to be attacked via melee (they are protected from massive damage and you have spent your attribute points on senses instead of vitality). Alternativly your critical attack character is a melee attacker but again you have spent no additional points on vitality (so they are weak in melee) - HOWEVER this can work if your (using weapon(s) with additional critical capability) AND this character is a stealth class character (with maxed stealth), AND at least one other character exposed to melee attack and has no stealth capability. For this melee type of character then you are ruling out a Samurai unless they have taken a level in Rogue for the Stealth skill. (Hmmm, roleplaying-wise that Samurai sounds like a Kensai.) Otherwise you essentially have a Monk to consider with the Staff of Doom or a Ninja with dual stilletos. Alternativly because of the enhanced number of attacks you could have a Ninja with two double-strike daggers and achieve similar results to a Ninja wielding dual stilletos. EE's: "Sultan and ScottG - We, like many others, have an urge to advise new and experienced players of the game, in order to enhance their fun. Those players do not want to be given complex mathematical formulas. They want to know things like, "What weapon should I use with my Valkyrie?" The formulas help those who would advise others to give correct advice not based on speculation, guesses, or only their own, limited playing experience. Not every new player wants advice, but if they do, those who give it have a natural urge to want to do it with... quality." I really only added that extra because of Sultan's response and because it would give at least some basis for my conclusions to Ironmasters questions. Additionaly of course I think I made it very easy for Ironmaster to get specific answers to his specific questions without a lot of verbosity, (could be wrong though...was I Ironmaster?). Hmmm, your right EE - I didn't differentiate swings vs. attacks. Like you I believe this occurs imeadiatly after the attack calculation and it would make sense that lightning strike would precede this calculation to determine the number of swings that attack. I don't think though that there is a specific "penetration" calculation after your chance to hit - otherwise you are simply re-rolling for a chance to hit. As to wether this is a modifier or a scale deviation (or both), I don't know. Your impression seems to suggest that it is actually "tipping" the scale in that character's attack which would mean that it is a scale deviation. This view point (at least for expert skills) does make sense if indeed there is a character level vs. monster level scale deviation (and I'd say there is based on magic's ability to hit monsters higher in level). (In otherwords it doesn't make sense to change the basic structure of the rounds calculation for magic vs. physical attacks.) For the ninja's auto-penatrate (at least from the book description) it simply suggests that it is an over-ride to the hit calculation - meaning that if a thrown weapon, (not simply ranged), is used then it will always hit. Logically in this instance then during the hit calculation the engine will first check to see if its an auto-penetration and then overide all other calculations within the hit calculation, ending of course with a hit and progressing on to a critical or damage calculation for that hit. [ 08-20-2003, 12:20 AM: Message edited by: ScottG ]