sultan

You're assuming there's only one best way to build a fighter: melee and meatshield. I dont disagree that this is quite possibly the most effective type of fighter in the game. However, the reason I'm still playing Wiz8 years after its release is the challenge to develop different kinds of parties and characters.

Even in a three fighter party, I would find little enjoyment making them all identical meatshields.

Indeed, this is the case. I dont train stealth on any characters. Even in the case where there's a rogue and/or ninja on the frontline, the fighters/samurais/valks or others without stealth (and with loads of armour) attract all the attention.

However, since I dont open reflexion for the monks (I find that the high martial arts skill more than compensates for an average dex when it comes to hit/penetrate), I do supplement their armour class with amulets of healing and a cloak of many colours as soon as I can get them, and they are readily available.

Sorry, I wasnt clear about how I'm developing the monk. The fact is that, without putting a single point on intelligence or piety I can get their mental college casting up to fantastically high levels - high enough that I'm casting ego whip at lvl 4 or 5 green as soon as it's opened.

So I'm not following the "CT" method involving power cast. Yes, this means at the highest levels, the mental damage doesnt cut through like a purecaster - but they're not a purecaster; they're a fighter who can do massive amounts of group-ranged damage. Akin to a bard with their instruments.

On a practical level, this means that my monk only develops 2 key stats (speed and strength), and then supplements a bit of senses (early, to learn crits) and vitality (late, to help with stamina - swinging 12 times per round is tiring, even to watch!).

Personally, I really enjoy fast-levelling, playing small parties and pures whenever I can (ie within the planned party dynamic), so it pains me to say this: If the experience point sheet posted at mindflay is right, the "slow" development issue is relatively minor.

By level 19, pure melees are one level ahead of pure casters, which are one level ahead of hybrids, which are one level ahead of bishops/ninjas. And this doesnt change for the remainder of the game! (Prior to level 11, no characters are behind more than a level)

Ok, sure, we'd all love an extra 6, 12, or 18 ability points on our characters, but by that point in the game, you've already added 120 or more points into our characters abilities, and their key skills are all well into the 80s. A few points dont make that big a difference.

In fact, the bigger factor affecting hybrids is point distribution at the beginning. Perhaps this brings up back full circle to your original point about monks "needing" a lot of stats. However, it must be clear that there's a difference between where they start and how you develop them.

Actually, it's both - I stand corrected.

With regard to the former problem (multiple disciplines), I feel that's the most difficult one to get around as most hybrids already have extra skills that need developing (eg criticals, dual weapons, ranged AND melee). So I solve it by focusing on a single college if at all possible. This gives me the *luxury* of not having to pump intelligence or piety (sure, at the expense of powercast).

With regard to the latter, I've posted in other threads that I feel level 6 and 7 spells are generally extremely difficult to develop effectively for hybrids within the standard game plot/timeline. Monks, the way I develop them, do not suffer that within the mental college (and that college only). But, the real shame is that mind flay, the lvl 7 psionicist spell, is only more effective than ego whip at 5+ green, and even then costs twice as much to cast. Hardly efficient.

Sorry, this is already a much longer post than I intended. I'll withhold a detailed analysis of your evaluation of the hybrids, some of which I agree with but some of which I disagree with. However, that is mostly because of how I develop the monk.

I can see now that I'm suffering from much single-mindedness with regard to monk development. I've tried developing them a number of ways, and stuck with them long after I started hating their ineffectiveness. Eventually, I found this way, and perhaps it's not the best way to build a monk.

Of the ways I've found to build other hybrids effectively, they often required a special kind of party to support/incubate them until they're ready. Even the valkyrie, which is by far the easiest hybrid to develop, is a waste in a party that has priest spells covered by another caster - you might just as well dual-class them over to fighter after level 11.

But this monk fits into most any party for the reasons I originally stated: solid damage contribution, criticals, decent spellcasting, and all that extra carry capacity!