[Mozenwrathe]

Originally posted by robertthebard: Yes, crafting costs money. In Fates, it also costs XP. Guess what. All the characters that want the stuff that can be crafted there spend the points in the skills, weapons/armor, and the gold and XP to do it. Do they complain, every minute of every crafting operation they perform. Do they do it anyway, yeah, and with multiple chars. We have crafter rings to, a max of +5, at least, that's the max players can get.

One of the main differences between here and say Fates is that Fates is a persistent world. It has an economy in place that such works are necessary AND profitable. Here it isn't. I have no qualms with crafting costing money and XP. My problem is, as always, convenience. I don't feel that for cosmetic differences only I should have to put in points to a skill that I'll never be able to use in a combat situation. Of course, this is coming from the person who has yet to use Parry in a combat situation, though I have it on half of my combat characters. *shrugs a bit* Inside of a world like Fates, I'd be more than happy to earn the money and get the materials needed in order to have someone else make it for me. Sure, they might charge me more than it would cost to make it myself, but it's only fair to them as they'd be losing XP in order to make it. (Though I have seen on various servers XP was gained for successfully crafting items. It wouldn't work here, as those systems were set up for slower gains in levels and not as heavily combat-oriented.)

I don't understand how putting a total of 25 points in crafting armor or weapons, as that's about all it really takes, affects your chars playability. Ashina, the "Supermodel" I used for the original crafter thread, is quite playable solo, to lvl 13 anyway. I haven't gotten around to putting her to the test on 14 yet. Daughter of Winter, my crafting cleric is also very playable with the skill points dumped into crafting. Off the top of my head, the only class that doesn't have crafting as a class skill is weapon master. *Shrug* To each their own, I suppose. I'll ride the bus with the party for all the free XP, but I'll also be the one doing the quests, when I can get down to them, so I don't feel bad about that at all. I'll also put points in crafting if I feel the need to craft my armor, after all, if I want it, I should be able to do the work for it.

My main arguement against this is "where else do I lose?" If I place points in crafting, those are saving throws I could be bolstering (Spellcraft), doddges I could be making (Tumble), or people I could be convincing (Persuade, Intimidation). Save magical items which may or may not turn up to boost those skills, I need to place those in my build in order to survive certain things. That, or I give up on going to various regions with that character (solo, at least) as they won't be as effective. Currently I don't wish to do that. Mayhaps if and when more regions appear, it won't seem to me like such a sacrifice.

Not really trying to take a real hard line on this, it's just the way I see it. On Fates, we had the ocasional beggar, who would want somebody else to spend the XP and gold to craft their items for them. It's frustrating to be busily gathering components for the crafting, which are required to add stuff to the armor/weapons, and have somebody else that's too lazy begging you to do it for them. Maybe that's why I think chars should have to "earn" what they get when it comes to crafting.

Well, I've seen the "earn what you have" arguement in terms of hair extensions and other... modifications. (No details. PG thread here.) If I've made the money, then I've earned it. On Fates, I would personally smack the people who were saying "oh could you do this for me and I give you nothing back for it." To heck with that! That's serious time and money invested in order to get that far. Here it's somewhat different. It's why I would love something that just gave me the power to "go to the mall" and get what I want in the look I wanted.

Think of it like this. If you and I go to a store and get the exact same shoe in the exact same size, we should pay the exact same price. If I want that same shoe in wingtip, and I have the money, I an go to a cobbler and get it altered. I have to pay more, but that's because I want the alterations. I don't need to learn a new trade AND pay more in order to get the alterations done. Now, given the "costs money and costs XP" statement earlier, I wouldn't mind a place that would do it for you at a marked up fee. Why not? I didn't learn the trade myself, so I pay more to have it done for me. I personally would think that would be a fair trade off, except of the work that Ziroc would have to put in.

So right now these are the "options" when it comes to armors with different looks but the exact same properties:

1) Ziroc does nothing and we go on as it is. (Easiest for Ziroc.) We argue the semantics about it all, but we still use the system as it stands now and make characters in droves accordingly.

2) Ziroc includes crafters' rings in the module. (Easiest technically for those who wish to make new looks.) One person has suggested to make them a prize. I like the idea of purchasing them. Could be 1 Mil gold. Could be 4 Mil gold. Could be 1 Mil gold per point in Crafting bonus. They'd sell. And most players would find it worth the cost.

3) Ziroc includes one of those alteration stores in the module somewhere. (Boo. Hiss.) Tons of scripting to look through. Not really worth his time for an option not everyone would use to begin with.

4) Ziroc uses some of those Live Forges to make places where characters get a bonus to their scripting rolls (+15 would be nice) and it costs more (30% to 3x more) to do your remodelling of your items. This would make characters still need to put points into crafting, but you wouldn't need to place as many. This option would also entice people to pick up after themselves and sell it to whichever store they came across. Gerfuril's and perhaps Herthstone's would be the best places to start that project.