Ironworks Gaming Forum - View Single Post

NobleNick · 10-06-2005, 01:48 PM

lost prophet,

Don't think of it as a "ripoff;" think of it as collaboration. That's why we're here.

I've never really tried DC characters so decided to try a whole party of them, i never have a bard either but im trying one of those as well.

fighter[13]/mage *****axe ***longbow
fighter[9]/G_cleric ****mace ***sling
fighter[13]/N_cleric *****flails ***slings
fighter[9]/thief ****longsword ***longbow
fighter[13]/druid *****scimitar ***sling (rolled 91 on 8th try)
bard *small swords *crossbow

Whoa! Nothing like jumping in with both feet!

when the lvl 9 DCers begin there second class they will have 3 lvl 9 fighters to back them up and help them survive but when the lvl 13 characters dual none of them will have there second class back again will they?

Yes, the F/C and the F/T will have their second classes back long before the other 3 Fighters DC. Here's how it goes:

250K XP --> Fighter(9) characters DC to second classes
410K XP --> 160K gained in Thief makes F(9)/T(10): Fighter reactivated.
700K XP --> 450K gained in Cleric makes F(9)/C(10): Fighter reactivated.
1,250K XP --> Fighter(13) characters DC to second classes

Even if you let your "junior" Fighters go to Fighter(12) before DC, you would get:

1,000K XP --> Fighter(12) characters DC to second class.
1,250K XP --> Fighter(13) characters DC to second classes
*No active fighters*
1,660K XP --> Fighter(12)/Thief(13): Fighter reactivated.
2,125K XP --> Fighter(12)/Cleric(13): Fighter reactivated.
2,600K XP --> Fighter(13)/Cleric(14): Fighter reactivated.
2,750K XP --> Fighter(13)/Druid(14): Fighter reactivated.
2,750K XP --> Fighter(13)/Mage(14): Fighter reactivated.

The gap from 1,250K to 1,660K looks like a long one; but remember that at the START of the gap, the team includes a Bard(15), a Thief(11) and a Cleric(9), and every member of the party, except the Bard, has about 130 HP. Also, your guys will advance in their new classes incredibly quickly: They DC at 1,250K; and a mere 60K later ALL will be level 7 or 8 in their second classes. You can dress the Cleric in the best armor, to be your tank, or dress your Bard in Blur, Mirror Image *AND* Stoneskin, and let her tank. The rest of the party can blast away with magic.

I would really advise that you try the above. If you feel you just don't want to do that; then I still advise letting the DC F/T go to F(11) before the DC, to get the extra 2 THAC0; and let the F/C go to F(12). If you are going into the expansions, especially on HoF mode, you will be glad you did.

On GM and Proficiency Point allocation in general: I think it is a good trade to have 1 or 2 in your back row go to 3 stars in ranged and forego GM in melee weapon. However, you want your front row to do GM. Here is the breakdown of how stacked PP affect your combat effectiveness:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

- According to Dundee Slaytern (not personally verified) the max ApR (from personal skills + equipment enchantments, etc.) is 5; but Haste (and other spells) can temporarily boost it as high as 10.

Bonuses To THAC0, Weapon Damage and ApR, vs. Proficiency Points in the weapon.

_#_OF_|___TOTAL_PP_BONUS_TO___|
__PP__|_THAC0_|_DAMAGE_|__APR__|
___0__|___-1__ |___-1___|___0.0__|
___1__|____0__ |____0___|___0.0__|
___2__|___+1__ |___+2___|__+0.5__|
___3__|___+3__ |___+3___|__+0.5__|
___4__|___+3__ |___+4___|__+0.5__|
___5__|___+3__ |___+5___|__+1.5__| <-- extra 1.0 ApR at 5 PP is not a typo.

- Chart data for ApR, only, is verified.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

2 PP is a sweet spot. 3 PP gives you a very nice boost, and I would also consider it a sweet spot. 4 PP is not a big gain over 3 PP; but 5 PP (GM) gets you another +1 to damage and *DING* *DING* *DING* gets you and EXTRA 1.0 ApR OVER 4 PP! I've done the math in another thread; but the short story is that a GM can OFTEN be OVER TWICE as effective with his weapon, than if he had only 2 PP in it.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!

[ 10-06-2005, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

10-06-2005, 01:48 PM	#2
NobleNick Quintesson Join Date: February 5, 2002 Location: Huntsville, AL, USA Age: 65 Posts: 1,045	lost prophet, Don't think of it as a "ripoff;" think of it as collaboration. That's why we're here. I've never really tried DC characters so decided to try a whole party of them, i never have a bard either but im trying one of those as well. fighter[13]/mage ***axe longbow fighter[9]/G_cleric *mace sling fighter[13]/N_cleric **flails slings fighter[9]/thief *longsword longbow fighter[13]/druid **scimitar sling (rolled 91 on 8th try) bard small swords crossbow Whoa! Nothing like jumping in with both feet! when the lvl 9 DCers begin there second class they will have 3 lvl 9 fighters to back them up and help them survive but when the lvl 13 characters dual none of them will have there second class back again will they? Yes, the F/C and the F/T will have their second classes back long before the other 3 Fighters DC. Here's how it goes: 250K XP --> Fighter(9) characters DC to second classes 410K XP --> 160K gained in Thief makes F(9)/T(10): Fighter reactivated. 700K XP --> 450K gained in Cleric makes F(9)/C(10): Fighter reactivated. 1,250K XP --> Fighter(13) characters DC to second classes Even if you let your "junior" Fighters go to Fighter(12) before DC, you would get: 1,000K XP --> Fighter(12) characters DC to second class. 1,250K XP --> Fighter(13) characters DC to second classes No active fighters* 1,660K XP --> Fighter(12)/Thief(13): Fighter reactivated. 2,125K XP --> Fighter(12)/Cleric(13): Fighter reactivated. 2,600K XP --> Fighter(13)/Cleric(14): Fighter reactivated. 2,750K XP --> Fighter(13)/Druid(14): Fighter reactivated. 2,750K XP --> Fighter(13)/Mage(14): Fighter reactivated. The gap from 1,250K to 1,660K looks like a long one; but remember that at the START of the gap, the team includes a Bard(15), a Thief(11) and a Cleric(9), and every member of the party, except the Bard, has about 130 HP. Also, your guys will advance in their new classes incredibly quickly: They DC at 1,250K; and a mere 60K later ALL will be level 7 or 8 in their second classes. You can dress the Cleric in the best armor, to be your tank, or dress your Bard in Blur, Mirror Image AND Stoneskin, and let her tank. The rest of the party can blast away with magic. I would really advise that you try the above. If you feel you just don't want to do that; then I still advise letting the DC F/T go to F(11) before the DC, to get the extra 2 THAC0; and let the F/C go to F(12). If you are going into the expansions, especially on HoF mode, you will be glad you did. On GM and Proficiency Point allocation in general: I think it is a good trade to have 1 or 2 in your back row go to 3 stars in ranged and forego GM in melee weapon. However, you want your front row to do GM. Here is the breakdown of how stacked PP affect your combat effectiveness: -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - According to Dundee Slaytern (not personally verified) the max ApR (from personal skills + equipment enchantments, etc.) is 5; but Haste (and other spells) can temporarily boost it as high as 10. Bonuses To THAC0, Weapon Damage and ApR, vs. Proficiency Points in the weapon. _#_OF_\|___TOTAL_PP_BONUS_TO___\| __PP__\|_THAC0_\|_DAMAGE_\|__APR__\| ___0__\|___-1__ \|___-1___\|___0.0__\| ___1__\|____0__ \|____0___\|___0.0__\| ___2__\|___+1__ \|___+2___\|__+0.5__\| ___3__\|___+3__ \|___+3___\|__+0.5__\| ___4__\|___+3__ \|___+4___\|__+0.5__\| ___5__\|___+3__ \|___+5___\|__+1.5__\| <-- extra 1.0 ApR at 5 PP is not a typo. - Chart data for ApR, only, is verified. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2 PP is a sweet spot. 3 PP gives you a very nice boost, and I would also consider it a sweet spot. 4 PP is not a big gain over 3 PP; but 5 PP (GM) gets you another +1 to damage and DING DING DING gets you and EXTRA 1.0 ApR OVER 4 PP! I've done the math in another thread; but the short story is that a GM can OFTEN be OVER TWICE as effective with his weapon, than if he had only 2 PP in it. -------------------- What's a party, without a song? Bards ROCK! Party On!! [ 10-06-2005, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]