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NobleNick · 06-02-2005, 12:52 PM

Azred,

I am talking about the effectiveness of a warrior in general. My comments about desirability are assuming HoW (and TotLM) are installed, and that the party will do at least IWD and HoW. I must admit that your Spinesheath (1D4+1, THAC0 bonus=5) build is a viable warrior, and is probably BETTER in the Malavon fight than would be the wielder of the best club available. And a dagger is a better fit for a Thief than a club. However, RPG and class-fit considerations aside, if a Spinesheath-wielding Fighter waded into a pack of monsters he would be expected to fare considerably worse than an equivalent build who specialized in clubs and was packing, say, Svian's Club (1D6+5, THAC0 bonus=5) or Debian's Rod of Smiting (1D8+3, THAC0 bonus=3, plus specials).

Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating the use of clubs, just damning daggers by saying that they are even worse than clubs.

I am impressed with your story about Malavon. This was a very tough battle for me. It is amazing that such a simple technique would thwart such a powerful opponent.

ister, Same story for darts and slings. I hate slings, but use them as the price for getting Cleric/Druid abilities. BUT a sling is not the worst ranged weapon you can find: Friends don't let friends do darts: A vanilla dart is 1D3. A vanilla bullet is 1D4+1. Let's not even talk about Jamison's Sling (+4), Giant Killer (+1, +4 against Giants) or Quinn's Fancy Sling (+3 damage, +5 THAC0). Just compare a plain old easy-to-come-by +1 Sling: Average dart damage = 2 HP per hit. Average Sling damage = 4.5 HP per hit.

Now here is where the smoke and mirrors start, because we must hypothesize THAC0s and ACs for an imaginary encounter. Let's presume a journeyman warrior with a natural THAC0 of 9 encountering an enemy with an AC of 0. The chance of a dart hit is (20-(9-0)+1)/20 = 60%. So the expected damage per dart attempt is (0.6 x 2) = 1.20 HP. The chance of a bullet hit (+1 Sling) is (20-(8-0)+1)/20 = 65%. So the expected damage per Sling attempt is (0.65 x 4.5) = 2.925 HP. The slinger gets 2 attacks per round, for an expected damage of 5.85 HP per round. The dartist MUST HAVE AT LEAST FIVE (5) ApR with the dart to better this expected damage (5 ApR x 1.20 HP/attack = 6 HP damage per round, which is essentially the same as the slinger's 5.85). Tougher opponents (better enemy AC relative to the Fighter's THAC0) make the slinger look better. More desirable slings make the slinger look better. Higher level warriors (better ApRs) make the slinger look better. Add in the factors that you pointed out about the plentiful sling ammo (much of it enchanted) and the choice is clear.

I can see the use of darts for highly special purposes: e.g., disrupting spellcasters; but I would not rely on it as a mainstay ranged weapon unless my class choice (Single Class Mage) forced me into it. This is just one of several very good reasons to NOT do a SC Mage.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!

06-02-2005, 12:52 PM	#27
NobleNick Quintesson Join Date: February 5, 2002 Location: Huntsville, AL, USA Age: 65 Posts: 1,045	Azred, I am talking about the effectiveness of a warrior in general. My comments about desirability are assuming HoW (and TotLM) are installed, and that the party will do at least IWD and HoW. I must admit that your Spinesheath (1D4+1, THAC0 bonus=5) build is a viable warrior, and is probably BETTER in the Malavon fight than would be the wielder of the best club available. And a dagger is a better fit for a Thief than a club. However, RPG and class-fit considerations aside, if a Spinesheath-wielding Fighter waded into a pack of monsters he would be expected to fare considerably worse than an equivalent build who specialized in clubs and was packing, say, Svian's Club (1D6+5, THAC0 bonus=5) or Debian's Rod of Smiting (1D8+3, THAC0 bonus=3, plus specials). Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating the use of clubs, just damning daggers by saying that they are even worse than clubs. I am impressed with your story about Malavon. This was a very tough battle for me. It is amazing that such a simple technique would thwart such a powerful opponent. ister, Same story for darts and slings. I hate slings, but use them as the price for getting Cleric/Druid abilities. BUT a sling is not the worst ranged weapon you can find: Friends don't let friends do darts: A vanilla dart is 1D3. A vanilla bullet is 1D4+1. Let's not even talk about Jamison's Sling (+4), Giant Killer (+1, +4 against Giants) or Quinn's Fancy Sling (+3 damage, +5 THAC0). Just compare a plain old easy-to-come-by +1 Sling: Average dart damage = 2 HP per hit. Average Sling damage = 4.5 HP per hit. Now here is where the smoke and mirrors start, because we must hypothesize THAC0s and ACs for an imaginary encounter. Let's presume a journeyman warrior with a natural THAC0 of 9 encountering an enemy with an AC of 0. The chance of a dart hit is (20-(9-0)+1)/20 = 60%. So the expected damage per dart attempt is (0.6 x 2) = 1.20 HP. The chance of a bullet hit (+1 Sling) is (20-(8-0)+1)/20 = 65%. So the expected damage per Sling attempt is (0.65 x 4.5) = 2.925 HP. The slinger gets 2 attacks per round, for an expected damage of 5.85 HP per round. The dartist MUST HAVE AT LEAST FIVE (5) ApR with the dart to better this expected damage (5 ApR x 1.20 HP/attack = 6 HP damage per round, which is essentially the same as the slinger's 5.85). Tougher opponents (better enemy AC relative to the Fighter's THAC0) make the slinger look better. More desirable slings make the slinger look better. Higher level warriors (better ApRs) make the slinger look better. Add in the factors that you pointed out about the plentiful sling ammo (much of it enchanted) and the choice is clear. I can see the use of darts for highly special purposes: e.g., disrupting spellcasters; but I would not rely on it as a mainstay ranged weapon unless my class choice (Single Class Mage) forced me into it. This is just one of several very good reasons to NOT do a SC Mage. -------------------- What's a party, without a song? Bards ROCK! Party On!!