[NobleNick]

Originally posted by darkmage: At say, 3 million exp, a dual class Fighter(9)/Cleric would have better protection spells AND more of them PLUS heaps of healing spells compared to the Paladin. And he would have similar Thaco given his grand mastery of weapons AND more times to hit compared to the Paladin. Wouldn't that make the Paladin obsolete as a Tank?

Darkmage,

~

~ Weapon spoiler below

~

Hmm... lets see... Well, first off, 3M XP = 3000K XP is a lot of XP. Your character will need the expansions to attain this in a 6 member party. Let's assume this is your intent, and compare:

Ground rules: The Pally uses a +7 THAC0 (and +7 damage!) melee weapon, and +4 THAC0 Long Bow. Clerics and Cleric mixes use +4 melee weapon and +3 Sling.

At 3M expo the DC character would be about a F(9)/C(20), with a boatload of spell slots and a natural THAC0 of about 8 with fists. (After both classes are active, the best THAC0 dominates, which, in this case, belongs to the F[9].) If the Fighter was a good boy and stacked his PP, then he could achieve a natural THAC0 of 5 with, say, a Mace; and 6 with Sling. So his best natural THAC0 is about 1 and 3; and ApR is 3.0 and 2.0, respectively, plus temporary magic (e.g. spell) bonuses.

The Pally, with 3M expo would be about CLVL 18 and have a natural THAC0, including effects of PP, of about 1 and 1 (melee/ranged). If he stacked in Longsword and Bow, then he should be able to achieve weapon bonuses of +7 and +4, yielding a final THAC0 of -6 and -3; and ApR of 2.5 and 2.5, plus temporary magic bonuses.

So the Pally(18) can attain a 7 and 6 point advantage over the F(9)/C(19), in melee and ranged, respectively, with overall ApR slightly worse than the F/C. The THAC0 advantage is very significant and makes the slight ApR disadvantage a second order effect. Add to that the protection against evil and the 2 point advantage in saving against spells (mentioned above by Aerich and long touted by Dundee Slaytern) that the Pally enjoys and you can start to see that this guy is no dud.

Now, having defended the Pally, let me hasten to add that I personally prefer the F/C and C/R for games that include the expansions, just built a bit differently than you have proposed.

At 3000K, a DC F(13)/C(15) can attain a natural THAC0 of 0 and 2 with PP bonuses. Given melee/ranged weap bonuses of 4 and 4, his final THAC0 is -4 and -2, with ApR of 3.5 and 2.5, plus temporary magic bonuses. The Pally enjoys only a slight THAC0 advantage over this build, and the Fighter's ApR advantage is no longer a second order effect. HP is about the same for both builds. The F/C must use Sling, whereas the Pally can use the more lethal Long Bow. If you stood these guys toe to toe in a purely physical contest, I honestly don't know who would win. Slight edge to the Pally at range and slight edge to the F/C for melee, I think; but both of these guys can tank and hit.

Ah, but the physical is not everything; and Priests and Paladins typically travel in parties. The F(13)/C(15) has 37 slots, with access to a wide array of Cleric spells up to and including SLVL 7 spells! Lots of these are really powerful party buffing spells. The Pally has, relative to the F/C, a very limited number of slots for spells up to and including SLVL (4?). Advantage goes to F/C.

Another neat build would be the C(12)/R(x). At 3000K this would be a C(12)/R(15). With wise choices, and +4/+3 weapons; he could attain THAC0 of 0 and 1, and ApR of 3.5 and 2.5: That is significantly worse than the Pally's -6 and -3; but the R/C gets an extra melee ApR, all the Ranger skills; and 29 slots for Cleric Spells up to and including SLVL 6 and Druidic spells up to and including SLVL 4.

The real advantage can be seen when these guys team up: Compare a Pally(18) and Cleric(21) to a team using a DC F(13)/C(15) and DC C(12)/R(15). The F/C is equivalent in melee to the Pally. Meanwhile, the C/R would quickly beat the snot out of the Cleric before turning to help the F/C do in the Pally. So in a purely physical match up, the SC team is toast. The DC team sports two full casters with a combined 66 slots topping out at SLVL 7 Cleric, and up to 29 of which can be used for Druidic spells; while the SC team sports about 50 slots, again up to SLVL 7, but virtually all of which must be Cleric spells, and virtually all of which must be cast by only one member (the Cleric). So, in a purely magical match up, it is a full Cleric caster and a full Cleric-Druidic caster against one excellent Cleric and a weenie-whomper: the SC team is toast again. The only big drawback to the DC team is that during their adventures they would have a window after the C(12) DCs but before the F(13) DCs where their party would be without Clerical aid: a good reason to have a Bard along.

I hope you found this interesting.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!


[ 05-18-2005, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]