Ironworks Gaming Forum - View Single Post

jmsteven · 10-28-2004, 03:55 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by NobleNick:
Well, we just about beat this horse to death, but, at the risk of being nauseating...[qb]

[qb]1d10 +4 bonus for CON=18 gives 10+4=14 with max HP option. I'm sticking with 14HP per level: Don't otherwise know how to explain how a Fighter[9] can get 126 HP. The approximately 22 extra HP of DC over MC for F[9]/D[10], though not huge, is not trivial either. Even if you play without max HP (and my hat's off to you for doing so), my guess (I haven't played this way) is that it is not a statistical dead heat. Yes, in your case the DC COULD even end up with even fewer points than the MC, but, statisically, it's not likely: Advantage DC.

First, it's only a 9 HP advantage, not 22 HP:
Fighter: 14 * 9 = 126
Fighter/Druid: 13 * 9 = 117

Second, when not playing with Max HP, the two are about even. The fighter will get 14 HP at 1st level and then average 9 HP thereafter until 9th level for an average of 86 HP. The multi-class will get 13 HP at 1st level and then average 4.5 HP per fighter level and 4 HP per druid level for a total of 81 HP at 9th level. I don't think 5 HP, or even 9 HP makes much of a difference.

...I would expect an MC F/D to END the game at roughly levels 15/17....at what levels is your MC getting the better THAC0 and gaining the ApR? (All the following are IIRC.) The MC gets 1 base ApR + 0.5 ApR at F[7] + 0.5 ApR at F[13] + ZERO ApR for stacked PP. The DC gets 1 base + 0.5 at F[7} + 0.5 ApR at 3PP + 1.0 ApR at 5PP. That gives the MC a total of 2 ApR and the DC gets 3 ApR: a 1ApR advantage (or a 0.5 ApR advantage, if I am wrong and it is only 0.5 incremental ApR gained at 5 PP.) Plus, by your numbers, the DC has a 2 point THAC0 bonus over the MC for higher stacked PP. and lets not forget the non-trivial 3 point damage bonus advantage for the DC. Again: At exactly which levels in which class do you say that the MC F[13]/D[14] obviates the advantage that the DC has?

You're incorrect regarding the ApR. There is a .5 ApR for 2 PP stacked. This is why Paladins can get 1.5 ApR in the beginning of the game. There is a .5 ApR bonus at 7th level and 13th level, and there is a 0.5 ApR bonus for 5 PP stacked.

This means that a 9th level fighter with 5 PP stacked will have:
1.0 ApR to start
0.5 ApR for 2 PP
0.5 ApR for 5 PP
0.5 ApR for 7th level
----------------------
2.5 ApR Total

A multiclass F[13]/Drud[14] with 2 PP stacked will have:
1.0 ApR to start
0.5 ApR for 2 PP
0.5 ApR for 7th level
0.5 ApR for 13th level
----------------------
2.5 ApR Total

The only way the dual class gets the attack advantage is by waiting until 13th level to dual. If you dual at 9th level, there is no difference in ApR.

Also, the +2 "to hit" advantage of 5 PP stacked is lost because the fighter THAC0 for the F[13]/D[14] multiclass is 4 levels better than the THAC0 for the F[9] dual-class.

Based on the above comparison example, the ONLY advantage of the stacked 5 PP is the 3 points damage bonus, which will equal an extra 7.5 HP in damage/round if every attack hits. This is a relatively modest advantage, and the proportion of damage caused by PP decreases as damage from other sources increases.

Here's an example

Take two fighter/druids. Both drink a potion of Storm Giant Strength (24 STR) and have a +5 Scimitar. One is DC and has 5 PP. The other is MC and has 2 PP.

Dual-class averages 4 + 5 (scimitar) + 14 (strength) + 5 (PP bonus) = 28 x 2.5 ApR = 70 damage/round if each attack hits.

Multi-class averages 4 + 5 (scimitar) + 14 (strength) + 2 (PP bonus) = 25 x 2.5 = 62.5 damage/round if each attack hits.

The 5 PP DC now only causes 11% more damage than the 2 PP DC, and whatever enemy is being attacked will probably be dead within 3 rounds regardless...

I concede that a Fighter[13] dual to Druid will be more significantly more powerful at the end-game than the multi-class because of the +3 damage AND 0.5 ApR bonus, but not Fighter[9] dual class.

My adversion to dual classing like this, however, is having to go through much of the game without the second class' abilities. If you wait until, say Dorn's Deep or Wyrm's Tooth to dual-class, a lot of the game is already over. If I want a druid for my party, I want her for healing and offensive spells in the Vale of Shadows, Dragons Eye and Severed Hand.

By the end of the game, the party is ridiculously overpowered anyway and it doesn't matter if you're a fighter/druid DC or MC.

[ 10-28-2004, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: jmsteven ]

10-28-2004, 03:55 PM	#42
jmsteven Dungeon Master Join Date: October 14, 2004 Location: Beregost Age: 37 Posts: 80	[QUOTE]Originally posted by NobleNick: Well, we just about beat this horse to death, but, at the risk of being nauseating...[qb] [qb]1d10 +4 bonus for CON=18 gives 10+4=14 with max HP option. I'm sticking with 14HP per level: Don't otherwise know how to explain how a Fighter[9] can get 126 HP. The approximately 22 extra HP of DC over MC for F[9]/D[10], though not huge, is not trivial either. Even if you play without max HP (and my hat's off to you for doing so), my guess (I haven't played this way) is that it is not a statistical dead heat. Yes, in your case the DC COULD even end up with even fewer points than the MC, but, statisically, it's not likely: Advantage DC. First, it's only a 9 HP advantage, not 22 HP: Fighter: 14 * 9 = 126 Fighter/Druid: 13 * 9 = 117 Second, when not playing with Max HP, the two are about even. The fighter will get 14 HP at 1st level and then average 9 HP thereafter until 9th level for an average of 86 HP. The multi-class will get 13 HP at 1st level and then average 4.5 HP per fighter level and 4 HP per druid level for a total of 81 HP at 9th level. I don't think 5 HP, or even 9 HP makes much of a difference. ...I would expect an MC F/D to END the game at roughly levels 15/17....at what levels is your MC getting the better THAC0 and gaining the ApR? (All the following are IIRC.) The MC gets 1 base ApR + 0.5 ApR at F[7] + 0.5 ApR at F[13] + ZERO ApR for stacked PP. The DC gets 1 base + 0.5 at F[7} + 0.5 ApR at 3PP + 1.0 ApR at 5PP. That gives the MC a total of 2 ApR and the DC gets 3 ApR: a 1ApR advantage (or a 0.5 ApR advantage, if I am wrong and it is only 0.5 incremental ApR gained at 5 PP.) Plus, by your numbers, the DC has a 2 point THAC0 bonus over the MC for higher stacked PP. and lets not forget the non-trivial 3 point damage bonus advantage for the DC. Again: At exactly which levels in which class do you say that the MC F[13]/D[14] obviates the advantage that the DC has? You're incorrect regarding the ApR. There is a .5 ApR for 2 PP stacked. This is why Paladins can get 1.5 ApR in the beginning of the game. There is a .5 ApR bonus at 7th level and 13th level, and there is a 0.5 ApR bonus for 5 PP stacked. This means that a 9th level fighter with 5 PP stacked will have: 1.0 ApR to start 0.5 ApR for 2 PP 0.5 ApR for 5 PP 0.5 ApR for 7th level ---------------------- 2.5 ApR Total A multiclass F[13]/Drud[14] with 2 PP stacked will have: 1.0 ApR to start 0.5 ApR for 2 PP 0.5 ApR for 7th level 0.5 ApR for 13th level ---------------------- 2.5 ApR Total The only way the dual class gets the attack advantage is by waiting until 13th level to dual. If you dual at 9th level, there is no difference in ApR. Also, the +2 "to hit" advantage of 5 PP stacked is lost because the fighter THAC0 for the F[13]/D[14] multiclass is 4 levels better than the THAC0 for the F[9] dual-class. Based on the above comparison example, the ONLY advantage of the stacked 5 PP is the 3 points damage bonus, which will equal an extra 7.5 HP in damage/round if every attack hits. This is a relatively modest advantage, and the proportion of damage caused by PP decreases as damage from other sources increases. Here's an example Take two fighter/druids. Both drink a potion of Storm Giant Strength (24 STR) and have a +5 Scimitar. One is DC and has 5 PP. The other is MC and has 2 PP. Dual-class averages 4 + 5 (scimitar) + 14 (strength) + 5 (PP bonus) = 28 x 2.5 ApR = 70 damage/round if each attack hits. Multi-class averages 4 + 5 (scimitar) + 14 (strength) + 2 (PP bonus) = 25 x 2.5 = 62.5 damage/round if each attack hits. The 5 PP DC now only causes 11% more damage than the 2 PP DC, and whatever enemy is being attacked will probably be dead within 3 rounds regardless... I concede that a Fighter[13] dual to Druid will be more significantly more powerful at the end-game than the multi-class because of the +3 damage AND 0.5 ApR bonus, but not Fighter[9] dual class. My adversion to dual classing like this, however, is having to go through much of the game without the second class' abilities. If you wait until, say Dorn's Deep or Wyrm's Tooth to dual-class, a lot of the game is already over. If I want a druid for my party, I want her for healing and offensive spells in the Vale of Shadows, Dragons Eye and Severed Hand. By the end of the game, the party is ridiculously overpowered anyway and it doesn't matter if you're a fighter/druid DC or MC. [ 10-28-2004, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: jmsteven ]