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NobleNick · 09-08-2004, 10:36 AM

Gimli,

Thanks alot for the reply Nick. I have been reading good things about Bards amping melee types here, but personally I've never had much fun with them in CPRGs (although looking at your sig I can see where you'd take exception to that, lol). So yeah, even if it will mean not having the ultimate power-type party I will skip over Bards - but totally understand if you or anyone else loves them.

You are welcome. I am a power gamer at heart; but try to keep in mind that for some, lots of the enjoyment comes from having a less-than-uber party that fits an RP theme. Just wanted to make clear that Bards are excellent characters in IWD, and **ONLY IF** HoW is installed. So if you are avoiding them for RP reasons, O.K. But if you are avoiding them because they sucked in other CRPGs, you are making a mistake. 'nuff said.

As for the elven chain type of armor, all I would ask specifically about it is whether or not only elves can use it - I am pretty sure now I want to take a Cleric/Mage now but I think only half-elves can take that combo. Also how likely is it for that elven chain to appear?

I honestly forget whether my Gnome Thief/Illusionist or my H-elf Bard is wearing this at the moment; but I would be extremely surprised if there were any race restrictions on the elven chain mail.

I do not think Cleric/Mage MC is restricted to Half-elves. However, If you want to MC a Specialist Mage there are some restrictions. IIRC, only a Gnome can MC the Specialist, and only an Illusionist at that. So, for MC, a Gnome Cleric/Illusionist would work, as well as your H-elf (or any other non-human race) Cleric/Mage.

It should be either a 1-in-2 or a 1-in-3 shot on each attempt to get the chain mail. The best advice I can give you, here, is advice that is generally helpful throughout the game: Save often and to different game names. In addition to saving to distinct game names just before and after important events (like tough battles); always save your game just before entering a new area (where you have to wait for the "LOADING..." message), and save to a **NEW** game name on the new area as soon as possible before continuing play. The reason is that IWD decides what the random treasures are in the entire level, the first time you enter the level. So, to re-randomize (if you didn't get the treasure you wanted) you need to re-start from a point in the game before you first entered the level.

...I do think having a Druid would be nice, and I wouldn't mind at all having a "Barbarian Shaman" type of Druid who I start off as a Fighter and then DC over to Druid... What benefits would I get from waiting until 13th as a Fighter instead of changing over at 13th? More WP slots and some HP? ... I guess having not played this game before I am a little anxious to get each character "set" into their role early on, but I'm flexible with this guy if the extra Fighter levels will really help him.

I think you meant changing over at 13 versus 9. . . O.K., as I am sure you know, the WP (actually "Proficiency Points" or "PP") stack to give the Fighter THAC0 bonuses, damage bonuses AND extra Attacks per Round (ApR). When the Fighter starts, he gets 4 PP that he can stack up to 2 high in 2 weapons. (Or he could spread them around over up to 4 weapons; but, since stacking is VERY powerful, spreading points is an extremely bad choice unless you are doing it for RP reasons). At levels 3, 6, 9, 12, etc. the Fighter gains another PP which he can continue stacking as high as 3 in a ranged weapon and as high as 5 in other melee weapons. So, a character DCed at Fighter[9] has a total of 7PP which can be stacked as a very respectable 3 PP in bows and 4 PP in, say, axe. The stacked PP give an extra 1/2 ApR in bow and in axe; and the Fighter picked up ANOTHER 1/2 ApR in all weapons when he hit clvl 7. So, clvl 9 IS a sweet spot for dualing a Fighter over, because it is relatively cheap in expo and provides good benefit.

Now, what is gained by waiting til clvl 13? At clvl 12 the Fighter gains another PP which he can stack to give 5 PP in axe. In addition to other benefits, this gives him, IIRC, another FULL ApR, for a total of 1.5 bonus ApR from stacked PP! At clvl 13, he gets yet ANOTHER 1/2 ApR for all weapons; plus, he gets bonuses to his saving throws, which are important in the later game. Even all this is not enough, if you are playing IWD, only, since your character needs to gain clvl 14 in the new class before you regain Fighter skills, and the game might be over before then. But for IWD/HoW (or even IWD, only, on HoF mode) clvl 13 is cheap; and you will have plenty of time to enjoy your regained Fighter skill set.

Also, what do I need stat-wise to dual with way, just an 18 in STR and WIS?

I anticipated your question, and have resurrected an old thread discussing how to roll a DC F/D. It is not a trivial task to get it right, and there is a huge gap between what you need to do to be able to perform the DC and what will yield a character that is fun and will not be a liability in the late game. I will either edit this post to give a link or full discussion, or will stick it in a separate post. Until then, the short story is that you need STR 15+, WIS 17+ and CHA 17+ to do the DC; but you also need high scores in everything except INT in order to have a viable and enjoyable character. High DEX and CON scores are especially important to making this character what you would expect, from an RP stance (a good Fighter AND a good Druid), as well as what you want, from a power gamer's stance (a Druid who can tank). We are talking power gaming, here: I needed to re-roll for probably an hour to get the roll of 90 that I felt I could live with.

EDIT: Here is the culmination of lots of head scratching concerning the DC Fighter/Druid, excepted from a thread in this forum:

------------------------ BEGIN EXCERPT --------------------------

...reasonable (what I would consider the MINIMUM ACCEPTABLE) DC Fighter->Druid stats are:

STR = 15
DEX = 18
CON = 18
INT = 3
WIS = 17
CHA = 17
TOTAL = 88

An 88 total is a power roll. Expect to roll for at least a half hour to get this. For a power roll over 88, allocate the points as follows:

STR = 15 (plus the 89th, 90th, and 91st points)
DEX = 18
CON = 18
INT = 3 (plus the 94th and any other extra points)
WIS = 17 (plus the 92nd point)
CHA = 17 (plus the 93rd point)

If you want the extra Druid spell, top out WIS first, before moving on to STR.

And, of course, you must align your Fighter as a True Neutral Human.

------------------------- END EXCERPT ---------------------------

I was thinking of adding a pure Elven Ranger... I've read so much about distance weapons owning in this game...

Yes, this is yet another way that IWD/HoW differs from other CRPGs: Ranged weapons rule; and a well equipped party can often take out even tough opponents before they can close to melee. An Elven Ranger would certainly do O.K., and is an excellent character from an RP stance; though I think a DC Cleric/Ranger would be an even better choice from a power gamer's point of view: I have a Ranger/Cleric and Cleric/Fighter, whos' unbuffed ACs are -17 and -21. (Ermmm, maybe that is with the Bard's song playing...) Often, in the expansions, a Cleric will get stunned or go down; and it is SO nice to have a Cleric buddy to get him back on his feet. Also, something to remember when you put your Ranger in danger, is that the "Raise Dead" spell does not work on Elves. (IIRC, though, the "Resurrection" spell does.)

Hope this helps.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!

[ 09-08-2004, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

09-08-2004, 10:36 AM	#5
NobleNick Quintesson Join Date: February 5, 2002 Location: Huntsville, AL, USA Age: 63 Posts: 1,045	Gimli, Thanks alot for the reply Nick. I have been reading good things about Bards amping melee types here, but personally I've never had much fun with them in CPRGs (although looking at your sig I can see where you'd take exception to that, lol). So yeah, even if it will mean not having the ultimate power-type party I will skip over Bards - but totally understand if you or anyone else loves them. You are welcome. I am a power gamer at heart; but try to keep in mind that for some, lots of the enjoyment comes from having a less-than-uber party that fits an RP theme. Just wanted to make clear that Bards are excellent characters in IWD, and ONLY IF HoW is installed. So if you are avoiding them for RP reasons, O.K. But if you are avoiding them because they sucked in other CRPGs, you are making a mistake. 'nuff said. As for the elven chain type of armor, all I would ask specifically about it is whether or not only elves can use it - I am pretty sure now I want to take a Cleric/Mage now but I think only half-elves can take that combo. Also how likely is it for that elven chain to appear? I honestly forget whether my Gnome Thief/Illusionist or my H-elf Bard is wearing this at the moment; but I would be extremely surprised if there were any race restrictions on the elven chain mail. I do not think Cleric/Mage MC is restricted to Half-elves. However, If you want to MC a Specialist Mage there are some restrictions. IIRC, only a Gnome can MC the Specialist, and only an Illusionist at that. So, for MC, a Gnome Cleric/Illusionist would work, as well as your H-elf (or any other non-human race) Cleric/Mage. It should be either a 1-in-2 or a 1-in-3 shot on each attempt to get the chain mail. The best advice I can give you, here, is advice that is generally helpful throughout the game: Save often and to different game names. In addition to saving to distinct game names just before and after important events (like tough battles); always save your game just before entering a new area (where you have to wait for the "LOADING..." message), and save to a NEW game name on the new area as soon as possible before continuing play. The reason is that IWD decides what the random treasures are in the entire level, the first time you enter the level. So, to re-randomize (if you didn't get the treasure you wanted) you need to re-start from a point in the game before you first entered the level. ...I do think having a Druid would be nice, and I wouldn't mind at all having a "Barbarian Shaman" type of Druid who I start off as a Fighter and then DC over to Druid... What benefits would I get from waiting until 13th as a Fighter instead of changing over at 13th? More WP slots and some HP? ... I guess having not played this game before I am a little anxious to get each character "set" into their role early on, but I'm flexible with this guy if the extra Fighter levels will really help him. I think you meant changing over at 13 versus 9. . . O.K., as I am sure you know, the WP (actually "Proficiency Points" or "PP") stack to give the Fighter THAC0 bonuses, damage bonuses AND extra Attacks per Round (ApR). When the Fighter starts, he gets 4 PP that he can stack up to 2 high in 2 weapons. (Or he could spread them around over up to 4 weapons; but, since stacking is VERY powerful, spreading points is an extremely bad choice unless you are doing it for RP reasons). At levels 3, 6, 9, 12, etc. the Fighter gains another PP which he can continue stacking as high as 3 in a ranged weapon and as high as 5 in other melee weapons. So, a character DCed at Fighter[9] has a total of 7PP which can be stacked as a very respectable 3 PP in bows and 4 PP in, say, axe. The stacked PP give an extra 1/2 ApR in bow and in axe; and the Fighter picked up ANOTHER 1/2 ApR in all weapons when he hit clvl 7. So, clvl 9 IS a sweet spot for dualing a Fighter over, because it is relatively cheap in expo and provides good benefit. Now, what is gained by waiting til clvl 13? At clvl 12 the Fighter gains another PP which he can stack to give 5 PP in axe. In addition to other benefits, this gives him, IIRC, another FULL ApR, for a total of 1.5 bonus ApR from stacked PP! At clvl 13, he gets yet ANOTHER 1/2 ApR for all weapons; plus, he gets bonuses to his saving throws, which are important in the later game. Even all this is not enough, if you are playing IWD, only, since your character needs to gain clvl 14 in the new class before you regain Fighter skills, and the game might be over before then. But for IWD/HoW (or even IWD, only, on HoF mode) clvl 13 is cheap; and you will have plenty of time to enjoy your regained Fighter skill set. Also, what do I need stat-wise to dual with way, just an 18 in STR and WIS? I anticipated your question, and have resurrected an old thread discussing how to roll a DC F/D. It is not a trivial task to get it right, and there is a huge gap between what you need to do to be able to perform the DC and what will yield a character that is fun and will not be a liability in the late game. I will either edit this post to give a link or full discussion, or will stick it in a separate post. Until then, the short story is that you need STR 15+, WIS 17+ and CHA 17+ to do the DC; but you also need high scores in everything except INT in order to have a viable and enjoyable character. High DEX and CON scores are especially important to making this character what you would expect, from an RP stance (a good Fighter AND a good Druid), as well as what you want, from a power gamer's stance (a Druid who can tank). We are talking power gaming, here: I needed to re-roll for probably an hour to get the roll of 90 that I felt I could live with. EDIT: Here is the culmination of lots of head scratching concerning the DC Fighter/Druid, excepted from a thread in this forum: ------------------------ BEGIN EXCERPT -------------------------- ...reasonable (what I would consider the MINIMUM ACCEPTABLE) DC Fighter->Druid stats are: STR = 15 DEX = 18 CON = 18 INT = 3 WIS = 17 CHA = 17 TOTAL = 88 An 88 total is a power roll. Expect to roll for at least a half hour to get this. For a power roll over 88, allocate the points as follows: STR = 15 (plus the 89th, 90th, and 91st points) DEX = 18 CON = 18 INT = 3 (plus the 94th and any other extra points) WIS = 17 (plus the 92nd point) CHA = 17 (plus the 93rd point) If you want the extra Druid spell, top out WIS first, before moving on to STR. And, of course, you must align your Fighter as a True Neutral Human. ------------------------- END EXCERPT --------------------------- I was thinking of adding a pure Elven Ranger... I've read so much about distance weapons owning in this game... Yes, this is yet another way that IWD/HoW differs from other CRPGs: Ranged weapons rule; and a well equipped party can often take out even tough opponents before they can close to melee. An Elven Ranger would certainly do O.K., and is an excellent character from an RP stance; though I think a DC Cleric/Ranger would be an even better choice from a power gamer's point of view: I have a Ranger/Cleric and Cleric/Fighter, whos' unbuffed ACs are -17 and -21. (Ermmm, maybe that is with the Bard's song playing...) Often, in the expansions, a Cleric will get stunned or go down; and it is SO nice to have a Cleric buddy to get him back on his feet. Also, something to remember when you put your Ranger in danger, is that the "Raise Dead" spell does not work on Elves. (IIRC, though, the "Resurrection" spell does.) Hope this helps. -------------------- What's a party, without a song? Bards ROCK! Party On!! [ 09-08-2004, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]