Ironworks Gaming Forum - View Single Post - Continuing the thread on IWD II highlights

Larry_OHF · 04-17-2002, 08:45 PM

Tuesday, April 16, 2002

Tuesday, April 16, 2002, 19:12 | MageDragon

Doug Avery (Associate Producer)

Sorry for the tardiness of the update today. We have added a skills section to the World tab of the website, and a sample of some of our skills are included there. Also updated are our portraits with two new additions from Justin Sweet. The FAQ has been updated to reflect a few more of the 3E changes. We also changed the Races to reflect their more finalized versions. The final thing that has been updated is the Feats section under the World tab. You'll notice a few of them have been removed and a bunch more have been added.

On the Black Isle Developer Boards
Tuesday, April 16, 2002, 17:30 | MageDragon
From the Black Isle Developer message boards.

Doug Avery (Associate Producer)

Update: You guys are assuming that we are updating today. I said sometime this week.

Actually, we are updating today, but the screenshots of the interface will have to wait as it is still being finalized. I have two new portraits, an updated FAQ, an updated feats list, updated character races and sub-races and a sampling of some of our skills. I will update the site again with screenshots when the interface is ready. This should happen this week, but it hinges upon a number of factors.

Kevin Osburn (Line Producer)

Music: We will probably release an .mp3 sampling of the music sometime in the future.

Not sure yet, we will of course try to release an entire track.

J.E. Sawyer (Lead Designer)

Manuals in regular and collector’s editions: Baby boxes are becoming the new industry standard. The IWD2 manual is LARGE. If it were spiral bound, it would not fit in the baby box. Sorry. RPGs are the only games that really suffer because of the baby box movement.

They will both have the same info, but the CE will be spiral bound. That's my understanding, anyway.

The color of Drow: In the Forgotten Realms, drow were originally from an equatorial region on the surface. After they went into hideytowne, they got their white hair. However, they always had black skin.

Items that raise attributes: Yep. Many items raise attributes. You also get free ability score points every four levels.

Point buy and buying magical weapons in the first store: It's no less autocratic than deciding that people will be able to play tieflings and aasimar, but won't be able to play genasi. It's no less autocratic than deciding that there will be +1 versions of weapons available in the first store, but not +3 versions of weapons. It's no less autocratic than deciding your characters will be able to go to Targos, but won't be able to go to Bryn Shander.

I've explained time and time again why die rolling in IE games is nothing like die rolling in PnP. It's a randomized point pool -- a randomized point pool that a player is allowed to "re-roll" hundreds of times more than any PnP DM would ever let them. Point buy with a fixed point pool is implemented as 1) an element of gameplay (you are restricted to the points you have, so allocating them is, strangely enough, a process that requires thought) and 2) as a an element of balance. The more controlled the range of ability scores, the more likely it is that we can balance our game for a larger group of players. Adding a "die-rolling" option (randomized point pool would be the accurate name for that) wrecks those goals.

I'm sure there are some people who might want +3 weapons available in the first town for 100 gp a pop. That doesn't mean we should put them in there. There's a difference between listening to fans and pandering to fans. When fans have good ideas, yes, they should be listened to and contemplated. When fans have requests -- requests that are at odds with requests from OTHER fans -- well, of course you can't just do everything every person asks you to do. Requests have to be evaluated for feasibility and gain. While adding a randomized point pool is certainly feasible, I believe it compromises the goals of the majority of people who want point buy. I've stated and repeated the three most oft-heard complaints about IWD1, but I'll do it again:

* It takes too long to generate characters
* It's too hard
* It's too easy

Static point buy dramatically reduces the time it takes to generate characters, and makes the difficulty of the game more uniform between players. Judging from how QA has been playing through the game, it seems very obvious to me that IWD2 will not have the wild fluctuations in difficulty that plagued the original game and HoW. Remember: this is not a pen and paper D&D game.

PnP feel and uncontested re-rolls: The primary reason is familiarity. Even though the rules are not implemented to the letter, many of them are implemented at least in spirit. Players know that elves can resist sleep spells, halflings are good at being sneaky, and armor makes it hard to hit something.

However, there are a lot of rules that present potent problems in a CRPG environment. Most of these rules revolve around what I call "uncontested re-rolls". I've actually discussed this a great deal with Dave Maldonado, who has very strong opinions on the subject. In a PnP RPG, there are many situations where a player rolls a die or dice for a particular result, and that result cannot be re-rolled, cannot be immediately re-rolled, or a botch/critical failure results in immediate dire consequences.

In a CRPG, most of these situations can be avoided through the use of uncontested re-rolls. Blow that roll to disarm a trap? Just re-load it and try again. Fail to memorize your spell? Just re-load and try it again. Didn't get the HP you wanted on level up? Just re-load and try it again. Failed to pickpocket that dude, thereby enraging the town? Just re-load and try it again. Don't like those six ability scores you rolled up? Just click again. FOREVER.

The situations where a player cannot use uncontested re-rolls are usually situations where there are so many other random elements flying around that they cannot simply isolate that one check. Perfect example: almost all battles. My opinion is that any situation where a player could make an uncontested re-roll should be re-worked so that there is no random element after the level is loaded for that particular game.

Blow that check to disarm a trap? Raise your Disable Device skill, find a way around the trap, or set it off and accept the consequences. Fail to memorize your spell? No, you didn't -- just remove the check. Didn't get the HP you wanted on level up? Forget that. Just set it to max. Failed to pickpocket that dude? You don't make him hostile, but you simply fail to pick his or her pocket. Raise your skill and try again later. Don't like those six ability scores you rolled up? Here, take these 16 points and add them to 10 in each stat.

Uncontested re-rolls have a tendency to make player choice impotent. If you can make uncontested re-rolls to disarm a trap, it doesn't matter if your rogue put two points in Disable Device or eighteen. A DM isn't there to scold you or force you to deal with your choices. When the possibility for uncontested re-rolls is removed from gameplay, player choice is much more important. When your rogue with eighteen ranks in Disable Device strolls down the hall, there aren't going to be many traps that he or she cannot disarm. Feel good about that, Mr. or Ms. Player. You made character choices that result in easy success over the challenges your character was designed to overcome. When your strong fighter does epic damage to a target, feel like you made a good decision, Mr. or Ms. Player; you chose to put a lot of your points in strength.

A failed pickpocket will result in a message that reads, "You are not skilled enough to pick the target's pocket." If you reload and try it again, you will receive a message that reads, "You are not skilled enough to pick the target's pocket." If you do something like use the Tymora bard song, have Cat's Grace cast on you, or raise in level, you may be able to pick the target's pocket.

Dave Maldonado (Designer)

New interface: No actual problems, just some functionality additions and aesthetic tweaks. I won't make any promises (or even estimates) as to when it'll be ready - I'll leave that dangerous business up to Wolf n' friends (^_^) - but I will say I was talking to one of the artists yesterday about some more buttons recently being crammed in, and the skill/ability icons are being redone as the spell and item icons were...

Success and failure based on abilities: If the NPC makes his or her spot check and goes hostile, WHOOPS IT'S TIME FOR ME TO RELOAD... and you've got scumming again.

Of course, there are ways around it... design the game so that PC's can escape from angry shopkeepers (or what have you) and later return when they will no longer be recognized... but heck, that's a whole other thread for a whole other game at this point.

I'm personally more inclined to have players live with the consequences of bad choices rather than bad dice rolls.

When lucks hands someone his or her arse in PnP, I think most blame the dice/fate/"dumb-arse Fred because he touched my dice," not the DM or game rules. In a CRPG, though, I think players tend to get frustrated with the game directly: "Time to reload, stupid game; thanks for wasting my time."

Eliminating such both rewards players for making good choices/decisions as well as teaches players how to avoid making poor choices/decisions in the future (rather than showing them how bad luck can ruin their adventure) - in other words, shows them how to become better/more proficient players. All this and no more goofy, immersion-breaking reload-fest - it's WIN-WIN!!!

Damien Foletto (Junior Designer)

Auto-pause: Auto-pause is still in the game. We have no intention of taking it out.

[ 04-17-2002, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: Larry_OHF ]

04-17-2002, 08:45 PM	#7
Larry_OHF Ironworks Moderator Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Midlands, South Carolina Age: 49 Posts: 14,759	Tuesday, April 16, 2002 Tuesday, April 16, 2002, 19:12 \| MageDragon Doug Avery (Associate Producer) Sorry for the tardiness of the update today. We have added a skills section to the World tab of the website, and a sample of some of our skills are included there. Also updated are our portraits with two new additions from Justin Sweet. The FAQ has been updated to reflect a few more of the 3E changes. We also changed the Races to reflect their more finalized versions. The final thing that has been updated is the Feats section under the World tab. You'll notice a few of them have been removed and a bunch more have been added. On the Black Isle Developer Boards Tuesday, April 16, 2002, 17:30 \| MageDragon From the Black Isle Developer message boards. Doug Avery (Associate Producer) Update: You guys are assuming that we are updating today. I said sometime this week. Actually, we are updating today, but the screenshots of the interface will have to wait as it is still being finalized. I have two new portraits, an updated FAQ, an updated feats list, updated character races and sub-races and a sampling of some of our skills. I will update the site again with screenshots when the interface is ready. This should happen this week, but it hinges upon a number of factors. Kevin Osburn (Line Producer) Music: We will probably release an .mp3 sampling of the music sometime in the future. Not sure yet, we will of course try to release an entire track. J.E. Sawyer (Lead Designer) Manuals in regular and collector’s editions: Baby boxes are becoming the new industry standard. The IWD2 manual is LARGE. If it were spiral bound, it would not fit in the baby box. Sorry. RPGs are the only games that really suffer because of the baby box movement. They will both have the same info, but the CE will be spiral bound. That's my understanding, anyway. The color of Drow: In the Forgotten Realms, drow were originally from an equatorial region on the surface. After they went into hideytowne, they got their white hair. However, they always had black skin. Items that raise attributes: Yep. Many items raise attributes. You also get free ability score points every four levels. Point buy and buying magical weapons in the first store: It's no less autocratic than deciding that people will be able to play tieflings and aasimar, but won't be able to play genasi. It's no less autocratic than deciding that there will be +1 versions of weapons available in the first store, but not +3 versions of weapons. It's no less autocratic than deciding your characters will be able to go to Targos, but won't be able to go to Bryn Shander. I've explained time and time again why die rolling in IE games is nothing like die rolling in PnP. It's a randomized point pool -- a randomized point pool that a player is allowed to "re-roll" hundreds of times more than any PnP DM would ever let them. Point buy with a fixed point pool is implemented as 1) an element of gameplay (you are restricted to the points you have, so allocating them is, strangely enough, a process that requires thought) and 2) as a an element of balance. The more controlled the range of ability scores, the more likely it is that we can balance our game for a larger group of players. Adding a "die-rolling" option (randomized point pool would be the accurate name for that) wrecks those goals. I'm sure there are some people who might want +3 weapons available in the first town for 100 gp a pop. That doesn't mean we should put them in there. There's a difference between listening to fans and pandering to fans. When fans have good ideas, yes, they should be listened to and contemplated. When fans have requests -- requests that are at odds with requests from OTHER fans -- well, of course you can't just do everything every person asks you to do. Requests have to be evaluated for feasibility and gain. While adding a randomized point pool is certainly feasible, I believe it compromises the goals of the majority of people who want point buy. I've stated and repeated the three most oft-heard complaints about IWD1, but I'll do it again: * It takes too long to generate characters * It's too hard * It's too easy Static point buy dramatically reduces the time it takes to generate characters, and makes the difficulty of the game more uniform between players. Judging from how QA has been playing through the game, it seems very obvious to me that IWD2 will not have the wild fluctuations in difficulty that plagued the original game and HoW. Remember: this is not a pen and paper D&D game. PnP feel and uncontested re-rolls: The primary reason is familiarity. Even though the rules are not implemented to the letter, many of them are implemented at least in spirit. Players know that elves can resist sleep spells, halflings are good at being sneaky, and armor makes it hard to hit something. However, there are a lot of rules that present potent problems in a CRPG environment. Most of these rules revolve around what I call "uncontested re-rolls". I've actually discussed this a great deal with Dave Maldonado, who has very strong opinions on the subject. In a PnP RPG, there are many situations where a player rolls a die or dice for a particular result, and that result cannot be re-rolled, cannot be immediately re-rolled, or a botch/critical failure results in immediate dire consequences. In a CRPG, most of these situations can be avoided through the use of uncontested re-rolls. Blow that roll to disarm a trap? Just re-load it and try again. Fail to memorize your spell? Just re-load and try it again. Didn't get the HP you wanted on level up? Just re-load and try it again. Failed to pickpocket that dude, thereby enraging the town? Just re-load and try it again. Don't like those six ability scores you rolled up? Just click again. FOREVER. The situations where a player cannot use uncontested re-rolls are usually situations where there are so many other random elements flying around that they cannot simply isolate that one check. Perfect example: almost all battles. My opinion is that any situation where a player could make an uncontested re-roll should be re-worked so that there is no random element after the level is loaded for that particular game. Blow that check to disarm a trap? Raise your Disable Device skill, find a way around the trap, or set it off and accept the consequences. Fail to memorize your spell? No, you didn't -- just remove the check. Didn't get the HP you wanted on level up? Forget that. Just set it to max. Failed to pickpocket that dude? You don't make him hostile, but you simply fail to pick his or her pocket. Raise your skill and try again later. Don't like those six ability scores you rolled up? Here, take these 16 points and add them to 10 in each stat. Uncontested re-rolls have a tendency to make player choice impotent. If you can make uncontested re-rolls to disarm a trap, it doesn't matter if your rogue put two points in Disable Device or eighteen. A DM isn't there to scold you or force you to deal with your choices. When the possibility for uncontested re-rolls is removed from gameplay, player choice is much more important. When your rogue with eighteen ranks in Disable Device strolls down the hall, there aren't going to be many traps that he or she cannot disarm. Feel good about that, Mr. or Ms. Player. You made character choices that result in easy success over the challenges your character was designed to overcome. When your strong fighter does epic damage to a target, feel like you made a good decision, Mr. or Ms. Player; you chose to put a lot of your points in strength. A failed pickpocket will result in a message that reads, "You are not skilled enough to pick the target's pocket." If you reload and try it again, you will receive a message that reads, "You are not skilled enough to pick the target's pocket." If you do something like use the Tymora bard song, have Cat's Grace cast on you, or raise in level, you may be able to pick the target's pocket. Dave Maldonado (Designer) New interface: No actual problems, just some functionality additions and aesthetic tweaks. I won't make any promises (or even estimates) as to when it'll be ready - I'll leave that dangerous business up to Wolf n' friends (^_^) - but I will say I was talking to one of the artists yesterday about some more buttons recently being crammed in, and the skill/ability icons are being redone as the spell and item icons were... Success and failure based on abilities: If the NPC makes his or her spot check and goes hostile, WHOOPS IT'S TIME FOR ME TO RELOAD... and you've got scumming again. Of course, there are ways around it... design the game so that PC's can escape from angry shopkeepers (or what have you) and later return when they will no longer be recognized... but heck, that's a whole other thread for a whole other game at this point. I'm personally more inclined to have players live with the consequences of bad choices rather than bad dice rolls. When lucks hands someone his or her arse in PnP, I think most blame the dice/fate/"dumb-arse Fred because he touched my dice," not the DM or game rules. In a CRPG, though, I think players tend to get frustrated with the game directly: "Time to reload, stupid game; thanks for wasting my time." Eliminating such both rewards players for making good choices/decisions as well as teaches players how to avoid making poor choices/decisions in the future (rather than showing them how bad luck can ruin their adventure) - in other words, shows them how to become better/more proficient players. All this and no more goofy, immersion-breaking reload-fest - it's WIN-WIN!!! Damien Foletto (Junior Designer) Auto-pause: Auto-pause is still in the game. We have no intention of taking it out. [ 04-17-2002, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: Larry_OHF ]