[Rataxes]

Originally posted by Hank Parsons: I *fully* agree that is what the debate should be about, Rataxes. If you frame the debate as you just stated -- is it fun? -- then you don't have to worry so much about whether something technically breaks some supposedly-sacred rule, like if a powerful mages casts 2 spells at the same time with no casting delay. It's no big deal, it's fun, and if you have a good imagination, it is plausible (but we've agreed plausibility doesn't matter as much as fun).

Right, I don't care much about whether a certain mod breaks individual rules, but as I've already stated, I do believe plausibility is vital for a good mod. It's not just about whether something a mod does is even possible or not given the basic laws of physics, magic, and whatever other forces are at work in the world of Baldur's Gate. A moderately infamous thug like Mencar Pebblecrusher donning a legendary artifact-class weapon (he does in the Imp Battles mod from what I've heard, undroppable as well) may well be a possibility, but still strikes me as unreasonable. Similarly, the power that Imp Faldorn possesses seems very unwarranted considering her background and other factors.

The problem is that the critics here are not answering this question: is it fun? Time and time again, they are claiming it is unreasonable, wrong, unprofessional, implausible, unrealistic, etc. I am merely answering those accusations (which are, in many cases, patently incorrect and unimaginative, and contrary to the flexible and creative spirit of D&D).

I think most critics here are already through with the question of whether a particular mod is fun or not though. If you enjoy a mod I doubt you'd bother pondering about the plausibility of it.

Here, maybe we can simply agree to disagree on what is fun. This debate would be a lot better if people would admit "I don't think that's fun" instead of trying to prove that Tactics is so wrong for offering the option. I thought the Tactics componants I've defended were fun (except Improved Faldorn which was impossible for me to beat legitly and therefore not fun; and Small Teeth Pass which I haven't played). For example, I think Improved Ilych, and Improved Bodhi, are fun. If you don't think it's fun, just say so, and I will have no disagreement with that, because "fun" is the player's opinion and the player's choice.

I think it would be a very short debate Defining the reasons for you not enjoying a certain mod makes it easier to come up with ideas to make it enjoyable, and I agree with Link that this is what the debate should be about.

Some people are really averse to anyone in their party dying, and would define someone dying as "not-fun." They went through the whole game and no one died. For me, that takes away the fun of the game. I want to play with the threat of death, the challenge to survive to epic victory. For me, the possibility of dying makes the game fun again. I love the idea of walking into an area, a dragon kills 2 of the party members, and yet you survive, win, and ressurect. That is epic heroism, in game-terms, to me.

Sure you should be able to die, absolutely. Going through the game trying to keep your entire party alive at all times should be a major and difficult struggle, but I do believe the lives of my party should always be dependant on my decisions and my skills. A 20d10 fireball exploding right smack in the middle of my party within seconds of entering an area leaves me very little chance of even trying to keep my party alive. At least on Insane difficulty, it's a little like the trap corridor on the first level of Bodhis Gauntlet that instantly and unavoidably crushes anyone who enters, you either try to enter the corridor and die, or you stay away from it. The Small Teeth Pass works similarly, only it's an entire area instead of an insignificant portion of one. There is no point in trying to pass through that corridor, and in my opinion there is no point in entering the Small Teeth Pass either as long as that 20d10 fireball is there, just waiting to annihilate you and your party.

For me: "impossible to beat legitly" is the worst (and also the best) criticism you can lay against a mod. If SixOfSpades did testing and determined that Improved Faldorn was impossible to beat legitly, then I would agree that componant should be changed. For me, Impossible To Beat Legitly = Not Fun.

Depends alot on how you define legitly, doesn't it? Some people would consider using HiS to hit and run Ilyich & Co to death with a backstabbing thief to not be legit. For me, the enjoyability of a mod is down to more than the beatability of it.

For example when people say that Skeletons should not be able to cast a Horror spell because they didn't have this ability in BG1 or in D&D - I disagree with that. Skeletons casting adds to the fun, and is therefore good (regardless of whether it is plausible or realistic, which, by the way, it is. If you have imagination.)

Skeletons casting Horror is not only plausible, but a very fitting ability for them and any other undead. Also, I don't believe Six was really opposed to undead casting Blindness, just to the fact that it lasts ages upon ages, which is simply more of a frustrating annoyance than that mod is worth.

[ 09-01-2004, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: Rataxes ]