[Iron Greasel]

Originally Posted by Cerek My comment was that games are marketed towards teens and young adults and I stand by that. To claim otherwise is naive. I don't think GTA is aimed for the "middle-aged gamer" in any shape, form or fashion.

Young adults are still adults. They can vote and everything. A child of 6 can understand that violence is not an acceptable way of solving problems, and a child of 18 must.

Originally Posted by Cerek I think we have effectively concluded these measures do not work well, if at all. What else could game manufacturers do? Simply STOP making games that require such measures in the first place. If you don't make a game that requires an "M" rating, you don't have to worry about some underaged teen skirting the system and buying it.

Here in the Glorious Free Nation of Finland, it's illegal to sell mature video games to children. It's also illegal to give mature video games to children. The laws are quite similar to the ones governing the sale of alcohol and tobacco. And children continue to play mature video games. They drink and smoke, too. O tempora, o mores.

Originally Posted by Cerek The boy in question was 18, which technically makes him an adult. So he can ignore the "parenting" he has been subjected to. This is even more true for young adults who don't live with their parents. So, to restate my own quote - "Playing games is fun. Shifting blame is easy." A young adult imitates a game? Well that kid must have been nuts already before ever playing the game, cuz the game certainly couldn't have had any bearing on his actions. So don't take away my game cause I like playing it and I don't want to find a different game that doesn't emulate breaking society's rules cause I think it's fun and besides I'm not going to REALLY go out and try to steal a car to see if it's as easy as it is in the game. Did I mention the kid who DID do that must have been crazy already?

Well, if we choose to define "insanity" as an abnormality in thinking that hinders the insane individual's ability to function in society, then he was insane. Normal people do not steal cars to see if they can get away with it. Most people have understood very early that violence is Not Appropriate. I'm guessing it's negative reinforcement. If you start punching random people, someone will very soon punch back.

And then there's the group of people who play violent video games, and choose to not imitate them. Apparently GTA4 sold approximately 6 million copies in its first week. And that's just the latest game in this one series, within a week of release. And it's still a lot more than the number of reported cases of game-inspired violence.

Originally Posted by Yorick That sounded like a suggestion from Cerek, not an advocation of banning things from being created. What he said is true. The simplest solution IS to not create irresponsible games in the first place. SELF-REGULATION trumps all. However, people won't self regulate, so there's nothing against banning stuff from sale. Create all you like, we just won't distribute it. This is the thinking behind hate crime laws. "Say it in private if you must, but don't try and foist such venom in the public sphere where it damages people."

Well, it's not really SELF-regulation if someone else is telling the game people to do it. Of course they can just spontaneously stop depicting violence, but I really don't think that's feasible at this time.

Also, are you absolutely certain that there's nothing against banning the sale of a product? Nationwide? Possessing this product is OK, as is just giving it away or making more of it, but don't you dare try to take money for it? Or are you talking about something else?