[Alson]

Originally posted by Jim: Good [img]smile.gif[/img]

Nobody likes to be a party-pooper, so...

Didn't realise this. So you could release a Spell Sequencer and a Chain Contigency loaded with SI's, and select immunity to all spells?

I'm quite sure you can't place SI within Trigger-type spells... but you can sure use Improved Alacrity to gain immunity to spells! A favorite overkill tactic of mine, actually.

If this spell is stackable, then one must ask if it was right to patch the cumulative AoF and like spells bugs?

Heh... replace "one" with Kevin Dorner, perhaps?

Then surely this is a bug that needs sorting. These two spells were never meant to be used in unison.

True. It's just as cheesy as x3 PI in a CC, for example.

I wasn't so much refering to damaging spells, more that if protection from divination is in place, then the physical protections can be dispelled, or if protection from abjuration is in place, the illusionary defences can be displelled.

Oh... strong point, then! However, ...

But since SI is stackable (an outrage!) that blows this out the window.

[img]tongue.gif[/img]

This is where our differences in opinion lie. I'm not trying to compare with PnP, but the BG universe on a more global scale. Consider an arena, where duels can take place, and every combination of tactic and spellcast is permissable. That's how I'm trying to contrast the two. I'm considering every eventuality, no matter how small, within the gaming limits.

OK, accepted. Let's assume a dueling pit of a sort. My stake's on the Mage, then.

That's actually unfair towards the Cleric - as the Cleric's specialities are, as you said more than once, healing & buffing (and, to a lesser extent, summoning and tanking). None of these will help him when battling One on One vs. the Mage.

Agreed, although in my past games, I can't say I've always had a potion of antidote/elixir of health to hand in times of need.

That's a result of laziness on the player's side, however. Couldn't say I havn't felt Laziness' agonizing touch, myself.

They are definately the ultimate tank summon, but for pure offense from flanking positions, you'll need a summon that can dish out punishing damage over a small period. MS does not shine here.

Agreed. The Swords have one purpose, and one purpose alone - take as much cr@p as possible.

Ah yes, the insane STR drain from Wraith Spiders! If only these could be summoned.

We can always compromise on Improved Kitthix. [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

I didn't realise that spiders had +1 enchanted stings (is this for all spiders, or just the more powerful ones?),

In comes the Infinity Explorer!

Giant Spider: +0
Huge Spider: +3 (!)
Phase Spider: +1
Sword Spider: +1
Small Spider: +1
Vortex Spider: +1
Wraith Spider: +1

As you can see... the little bugger have surprisingly well-made stings.

but never the less, due to some impressive saves, the Aerial Servant should still easily pummel 1 (of not 2) spiders at once with ease. A spider would be very lucky to survive more than 2 rounds against an AS.

While the IE is open, I might as well check the AS's saves.
...
Not so impressive, actually! Only 7 vs. spells - which means he's more or less bound to be webbed with 3 or so Webs stacked together. Go Web, the spell of ultimate mastery!

True, but clerics still remain powerful, just not as powerful.

Everyone's grama is powerful in ToB. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

In general, I think that Cleric are even more discriminated against in ToB than in SoA. Whilst in SoA they were capable of holding on their own in combat, ToB features -15 THAC0 muggers. In addition, their HLA pool is pathetic in comparision to the Fighter's (GWW, CS, Hardiness...), the Thief's (UAI, Spike Traps, Time Traps...), the Mage's (IA, DB, Planetars...) and heck, even the Druid's (as Elemetal Princes trump the Devas)! Outrageous, I tell you, outrageous!

We've already proven than they're invaluable in the heat of battle to heal, and it can't be denied that party's need buffing.

There's no need for healing if you're not taking damage. Also, a single Mage can buff the party just as good as a single Cleric - if not even better! The Mage will probably left with very few spells, though.

Against undead there's no competition, and to round things off, we can use the cleric as a front line tank and backup offensive spell caster (albeit it wilh a limited selection of good spells).

Don't underestimate the tanking ability of a Mage.

I think that in general, the difference lies in their purposes. A Mage is more specialized - stay in the back, and wreak havoc. In some occasions, buff the party up the wazoo or slap on Pro-Magical-Weapons and tank ahead. A Cleric, on the other hand, can do all of this without as much preperations as the Mage(having the AC & HP naturally, and a plethora of spells, to boot), but just not as good. Do you agree? This also explain the difference of opinions between us - as I really dislike having so-called "jacks-of-all-trades" in my party - instead, I prefer more specialized characters.

I think they can only be classed as "weak" when pitched against a mage in a spell casting fight only. This spell casting is only a small role of the cleric. I guess this comes down to opinion now. You're playing style has little room for a cleric. Mine feels that clerics are versitile and a useful addition to a party. Each to his own.

Well put - we seem to be getting closer to an agreement. Woot! (argh... damn smiley limit!)

I agree that it's not bad between battles, but we're talking about in the heat of battle here. When fighting an iron golem/improved boss/any difficult foe, a single hit can account for well over 100 damage (assuming insane diff). A few hits and you're agonna. The regeneration provided by Foebane will not stop the characters imminent death when facing such such huge amounts of damage.

Not true, from my experience. Foebane, when combined with a high ApR, can heal the user up to 40 (!) HP per round - which can surpass the character's maximum HP!

Well, provided the cleric has rested before the battle, he/she can have up to 7 castings of GR (admittedly this would render the cleric next to useless for fighting purposes due to the huge build up of anti luck this would incur).

... and the fact that GR takes a long time to cast.

Something would have to be seriously wrong if more than this was needed. Whilst I agree that point 1 is useful and practical (and indeed should be implemented even when having a GR casting cleric), healing potions will heal up to 40 damage per round only, and like I've said, when facing multiple foes on insane diff, this 40 won't necessarily save you.

If one's taking more than 40 points of damage per round, one should think if he's doing something wrong.

But not in others...i.e. healing a party that's near death towards the end of a huge boss battle, thus turning the tide, or fighting in melee, or battling undead. Like I've said above, I'm not trying to say a cleric is better than a mage in general, but a cleric is a far from useless addition to the party.

OK, I agree. It's just not the optimal one. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Keep it coming!

[ 06-12-2003, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: Alson ]