[Yorick]

Originally posted by Luvian: Well... first of all, just because someone wrote that list of names does not prove they existed. Can you give me undisputable proof of the existance of Seth? How about the existance of Adam? Did they find his skeleton? Was it missing that bone god used to create Eve? And for that matter, how can they prove Mary (if that's also her english name) didn't have sex? Wasn't she maried with her husand?

Can you give me indisputable proof of the existence of Plato? Did they find his skeleton? How about bones from Hannibal? Or what about Hammurabi? Or Cyrus the Great? Any bones of their found? Do you deny their existence? The "list of names" I posted is in the new testament. The list gets longer from genesis onward as the bible goes on. It's cumulative recording Luvian. Knowledge based on knowledge.

I have a family tree my grandfather researched. He went to Scotland and found gravesites and birth records. I trust him and his dedication to accuracy. Therefore I can rely on the fruit of his work, rather than do it all myself. This is a foundation of human aquisition of knowledge Luvian. Without this principle each human would be reinventing the wheel.

Now, If I pass on the writing to my children, adding my name to the list, the record expands. If they add their names the list expands again.

You seem awfully quick to dismiss a work which has been revered and dutifully copied again and again with extreme dedication to accuracy for the last 4000 odd years.

Just without considering all the inbreeding, do you have any idea how long it would take for two people to populate the earth? And that's without considering all the plagues, wars, and the great flood...

How long to rats or rabbits take to breed?

Inbreeding. Let's look at that for a moment. The Bible speaks of the first humans living 600 years plus. Unbelievable? What if we are the mutants resultant from such inbreeding Luvian? Madness, attention deficite disorders, cancers, sickness, immune problems, shorter and shorter lifespans, skin blemishes etc etc. Not to hard a stretch. What if Adam was as fast as a human could be? As strong as a human could be? As smart as a human could be? What if Adam was created perfect, and we are all living in various levels of imperfection? Blue eyes are a regressive gene for example.

Adam and Eve only procreated after "the fall" when sin entered the world. As such we all inherited imperfection from those two.

Or did we? The bible doesn't say God didn't create others. The bible speaks of Cain, Abel and Seth, but doesn't say they didn't have other children.

I certainly don't know the exact picture. But I do know the bible presents Adam as a factual person.

As far as how long would it take to populate the planet... well I'm no mathematician, but take the Five billion people in the world and start dividing backwards.

Take 2 perfect people.
Within 20 years they have 20 children. (No contraceptives)
The second generation have children by the age of 20, and by age 50 have at least 20 kids for every two people say...
So by the time the youngest is 50 there'd be at least 200. The next generation would number 2000.

This presuming those two perfectly made people are only fertile for the first 20 years of their 500 year marriage. I'd bank on them bonking for much longer.

Anyhow the next generation is 20,000 and the next 200,000 and so on.

Following that pattern in 180 odd years you could have a tenth generation of at least 2 billion people.

Before you decry "unrealistic" bear in mind, Brazils example of huge 13 member families is more historically "realistic" than the contraceptivly stunted families of one or two children. There were twelve children of Jacob who initiated the various tribes of Israel for example.

As far as Mary goes, she was unmarried.

I don't doubt there are good life lessons to be found under all the sexist crap, and I don't doubt the bible is based on facts and real people, but there are some things that are simply impossible... The idea that some guy built a big boat and put a couple of every animals plus all the food necessary in it is one of those. There might have been a flood, there might have been lots of death, but sorry, I won't believe in a giant magical boat.

Why not? He allegedly built the boat over a huge number of years. He had 120 years warning. Some estimate it could have been built in 65 years under a worst case scenario.

The Ark was 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high. It also had three decks. Thus the overall volume of the Ark was:

450 x 75 x 45 = 1.52 x 106 ft.3

He didn't have to transport the Ark anywhere, despite being ridiculed for building it far away from water, the flood came to the ark.

You know, you say it's obvious I am not Elvis. Well... to me, the existance of a giant boat, a guy able to seperate a river, or even an omnipotent all powerfull entity seem a lot less likely than me being a celebrity... How is it that you accept those things so easily? The fact that the different places and political figures in it really existed give no proof at all about the existance of a god. Just because an apostle talked about the king of some old city, does not mean his belief on an entity he never saw is founded. Just look at the Raelians. They are basing their religion on a real setting, and alien life is statisticaly almost impossible not to exist. Do you believe in them, too? Just as there is no real 100% sure evidence that I'm not Elvis, there is no evidence in the existance of god and all the "magical" things hapening int he bible. You know, I have my own religious opinions, I'm not convinced there is no god, but I still find it very hard to accept all the "miracles" written about in the bible. [/qb]

Of course it's hard to accept. That's why it's called faith. You know what I'm working on at the moment? Expanding my faith. Not just believing they happened then, but that with faith they are possible now. That is my challenge. I believe that with faith I can tell a mountain to move and it will.

The problem is I don't have that sort of faith. I know I will never have the faith to walk on water. But I believe that had I the faith I would.

POSSIBILITY.

It is mind expanding. It challenges me to expand my thinking. Expand my horizons. Increase certainty. Faith is incredible Luvian. Did you know that singing is totally centred around confidence? That's the first thing I work on when teaching someone. You must be confident you will hit the note to hit it. There is no try. There is only faith you will suceed. It is such a simple law within music, yet works in so many other areas of life.

If you believe no-one will ever love you, no-one will. Self fulfilling. If you walk in a building like you are meant to be there, the odds of being stopped are far less than if you walk in hesitantly. Hope is a source of human life. Faith is moving towards that hope with confidence.

Having faith in God, having spirituality has only increased my life-faith more and more. I have seen amazing healings brought on by faith in Jesus, in both myself and others close to me.

The bible contains facts. The bible contains poetry and wisdom. The bible contains revelations on who God is, and what life is for. Some of what the Bible contains requires faith to accept. Not a groundless faith, but faith nonetheless.

This is part of the cost. Seperates the sheep from the goats as it were.

But when we see historical evidence backing up some of the historical elements, it's encouraging. When we see personal growth backing up some of the promises the bible contains it;s also encouraging. None of the proofs exist in isolation. All the proofs are complimentary.

Anyhow I need to get some sleep.

See ya. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 09-23-2003, 05:33 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]