Quote:
Originally posted by SixOfSpades:
To answer that, one must only ask itself if the patch itself is fair. In this case, the answer is yes. One may assume that any gamer inquisitive enough to give a damn about Barbarian vs. Berserker fights already has the full BaldurDash Fixpack installed.
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Fair point, although I still think the reason why grandmastery was toned down was to make room for bonus proficiencies allowing dual wielding or quicker/more powerful use of larger weapons. Personally, I do use the GM patch, although within my own guidelines. If I'm using a 2-Handed weapon, I ingnore the 2-handed weapon style bonuses, if I'm dual wielding, I place no points into two weapon style (a kensai is powerful enough to offset the -8 to hit penalty), and for missile weapons it's fine (there should have been a missile weapon style - maybe to overcome the negative attack rolls/enemy attack bonuses for close quarter combat, along with perhaps a critical hit modifier and a small boost to damage).
Quote:
Originally posted by SixOfSpades:
Good job on the brawling stats, Jim! Now run the calculations again, this time where they both have the Sentinel Shield.  (Or the Defender of Easthaven, for the Barbarian.)
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Thanks [img]smile.gif[/img] . Need to summarise this debate now though
The following encounters assume the following:
Both the Barbarian and the Berserker have the following key stats; 18/70 STR (+2 to hit, +3 to damage), 17 DEX (+3AC) and 18 CON (+4HP per level up to and including level 9).
I assume you want the Berserker to use the Sentinel and the Barbarian to use Easthaven as an offhand weapon? Rather than both using the Sentinel or both wielding Easthaven. (They should ideally have similar offensive capabilities to make the test fair), We'll go with Sentinel vs easthaven.
Sentinel vs Easthaven
Berserker 'enrages'/barbarian 'barbarian rages':
Berserker: HP = 171, AC=-15 (-19 vs slashing weapons), number of attacks = 7/2, damage per hit 1D8+3+3+5+2 = 14-21, damage per round = 49-74
Berbarian: HP = 192, AC=-5(-7 vs slashing weapons), number of attacks = 7/2, damage per hit = 1D8+3+10+2= 16-23 (mainhand) or 1D6+4+10+2=17-22 (offhand), damage per round = (2.5*(16->23)+1*(17->22))=(40->58 + 17->22) = 57-80.
Each one of the Berskers attacks deals an average of 17.5 damage. The barbarian will shrug off 20% of each attack (takes 14 damage), so will there for need to be hit at least 14 times to reduce his 192HP to 0. During these 14 attacks, we should experience one critical miss, effectively making the Berserker to make 15 attacks. 15 attacks will take 4 rounds plus approx one third of another round (15/3.5). During this window, the Barbarian has made around 15 attacks.
The Berserker will have a THAC0 of 2 base, -3 proficiency, -2 STR, -2 enrage, -3 axe enchantment = -8.
The Barbarian will have a THAC0 of 2 base, -1 proficiency, -4 STR, -3 axe enchantment = -6 (mainhand) and 2 base, +2 penalty, -1 proficiency, -4 STR, -3 flail enchantment =-4 (offhand).
The Barbarian gets the +1 AC bonus from Easthaven, but the THAC0 of the Berserker will still punch through on a roll of 2 or higher. The Barbarian needs 13 or higher for the mainhand (40% chance), and 11 or higher from the offhand (50% chance - since full plate has no crushing modifier)
If the Berserker is hitting for 17.5 average per hit, the Barbarian will only take 60% of this (due to 40% resistancs from the DoE and barbarian abilities) = 11 damage per hit. 18 hits are therefore needed, taking a window of just over 5 rounds. Within 5 rounds, the barbarian has made 17.5 attacks. Main hand attacks are 12.5 @ 19.5 damage and offhand are 5 also @ 19.5 damage. 40% of 12.5 attacks is 5 attacks. 50% of 5 attacks is 3 attacks. The Barbarian has therefore made 8 successful attacks @ 19.5 damage, which is 156HP damage. This is not enough to slay the Berserker, *however*, the Berserker needs just over 5 rounds .... ergo the first strike of the 6th round will kill the Barbarian, but wait, the barbarian has left the Berserker will a lowly 15 HP by the end of the 5th round, and so too will kill the Berserker will the first strike of the 6th round. Again, this comes down to chance, and this round must therefore be declared a draw.
Both wielding axes +3 and Sentinel shields
Berserker 'enrages'/barbarian 'barbarian rages':
Berserker: HP = 171, AC=-15 (-19 vs slashing weapons), number of attacks = 7/2, damage per hit 1D8+3+3+5+2 = 14-21, damage per round = 49-74
Berbarian: HP = 192, AC=-10(-12 vs slashing weapons), number of attacks = 5/2, damage per hit = 1D8+3+10+2= 16-23, damage per round = 40-58
The Berserker will have a THAC0 of 2 base, -3 proficiency, -2 STR, -2 enrage, -3 axe enchantment = -8.
The Barbarian will have a THAC0 of 2 base, -1 proficiency, -4 STR, -3 axe enchantment = -6.
The Berserker needs a roll of 4 or higher in order to hit the barbarians slashing AC of 12 (85% success). The Barbarian needs a minimum roll of 13 or higher (40% success) in order to hit th Berserkers slashing AC of -19.
The Berserker is dishing out 17.5 damage per hit, which is effectively 14 damage to the barbarian. 14 hits are therefore required to reduce the Barbarians's 192 HP to zero, (therefore 16 attack rolls taking the 15% chance to miss into account), taking 16/3.5= 4.6 rounds to kill the barbarian. Within this number of rounds, the Barbarian has made 11 attacks. 40% of these 11 attacks are successful, which is 5 hits @ 19.5 damage=98 HP. The Berserker has clearly owned the Barbarian in this situation.
Both wielding a 2-handed sword +3:
Berserker 'enrages'/barbarian 'barbarian rages':
Berserker: HP = 171, AC=-10 (-14 vs slashing weapons), number of attacks = 7/2, damage per hit 1D10+3+3+5+2 = 14-23 (average=18.5), damage per round = 49-81
Berbarian: HP = 192, AC=-4(-6 vs slashing weapons), number of attacks = 5/2, damage per hit = 1D10+3+10+2= 16-25 (average=20.5), damage per round = 40-63
The Berserker will have a THAC0 of 2 base, -3 proficiency, -2 STR, -2 enrage, -3 sword enchantment = -8.
The Barbarian will have a THAC0 of 2 base, -1 proficiency, -4 STR, -3 sword enchantment = -6.
The berserker will always hit bar on a roll of 1. The Barbarian needs a roll of 8 or higher = 65% chance of hitting. The Berserker is hitting for 18.5 average each hit (effectively 15), and so needs to score 192/15=13 hits to slay the Barbarian (call it 14 to negate critical misses). This will take 14/3.5=4 rounds. During this time, the Barbarian has countered with 10 assaults, each one dealing 20.5 damage. 65% of these hit the Berserker, so the barbarian has caused 7*20.5 damage = 144 damage. The Berserker has won again.
So, to summarise:
- a Barbarian vs a Berserker with a crappy AC will always win
- a Barbarian vs a Berserker without the aid of the grandmastery patch will always win
- a Barbarian vs a Berserker, both dual wielding slashing weapons, with the grandmastery patch is too close to call, a draw
- a Berserker with a powerful shield vs a Barbarian dual wielding an axe and the DoE is too close to call, a draw
- a Berserker vs a Barbarian, both wielding powerful shields will result in Barbarian stew
- a Berserker vs a Barbarian, both using 2-handed weapons is the 2nd course of Barbarian stew