Quote:
Originally posted by SixOfSpades:
And that, I feel, is a mistake, because AC is where the Berserker shines, and where the Barbarian really eats it. I'm not arguing with your combat numbers, Jim, but the combat differences are actually less than you suggest. A Level 19 Warrior will indeed have a bitchin' THAC0, sure, but not so bitchin' that your AC becomes completely irrelevant.
Apart from this, Barbarians get crap for armor. A Berserker has great armor shoved in his face, as soon as you take out Mencar Pebblecrusher. If you want something enchanted, stroll on over to the Guarded Compound. In Chapters 4-5 alone, there's the Doomplate+3, Gorgon Plate+4, and the Armor of the Hart+3....not to mention the Drow Full Plate+5. If you picked Barbarian, however.....well, you can wear the Mail of the Dead until you swing by Bodhi's pad and pick yourself up some Ashen Scales, or go kill a Shadow Dragon and wear that, or if you want to wait for the Main Plot, you can sacrifice a pair of Boots of Speed for the Jester's Chain that makes you look like a clown, or wait even longer, until Chapter 6, for the Crimson Chain or the Human Flesh.
For another point, Plate and Full Plate both have way better AC Modifiers than Chain, Splint or Leather. (What does the Shadow Dragon Scale count as? Leather Armor with the AC modifiers of Splint Mail?) So if, instead of Axes, your hypothetical antagonists were wielding Warhammers, the outcome would be very different.
For my final point, the Berserker's Rage further improves his AC, while the Barbarian's actually weakens it.
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Oops, this post must have slipped me by! Apologies, would have replied sooner.
Yeah I see your point. If I assume that the wielded weapon is now a +3 axe, and each character is wearing decent armour (by level 19, powerful items are in reach anyway for an average party of 6 game, since you'll be in the latter stages of the game), and then take a look at the numbers (STR=18/70, DEX=17):
Assuming max HP per level
Berserker: (9*(10+4))+30 HP = 156
Barbarian: (9*(12+4))+30 HP = 174
Weapons:
Both dual wielding battleaxes +3.
Berserker (grandmastery): 7/2 attacks at 1D8+3+3+3 = 10-17 damage per hit ~ 35-60 damage per round
Barbarian: 7/2 attacks at 1D8+3+2+3 = 9-16 damage per hit ~ 32-56 damage per round
Armour:
Berserker: Armour of the Hart +3 (-4 vs slashing weapons), ring of earth control, helm of Balduran, cloak of the sewers, 17 DEX = AC -8 (-12 vs slashing weapons)
Barbarian: Crimson Chain +5 (-2 vs slashing weapons), ring of earth control, helm of Balduran, cloak of the sewers, 17 DEX = AC -6 (-8 vs slashing weapons)
Berserker 'enrages'/barbarian 'barbarian rages':
Berserker: HP = 171, AC=-10 (-12 vs slashing weapons), damage per hit 1D8+3+3+3+2 = 12-19, damage per round = 42-67
Berbarian: HP = 192, AC=-4(-6 vs slashing weapons), damage per hit 1D8+2+10+3= 16-23, damage per round = 56-81
The Berserker will have a THAC0 of 2 base, -2 proficiency, -2 STR, -2 enrage, -3 axe enchantment = -7 for the mainhand, and -5 for the off hand (assuming *** 2 weapon style)
The Barbarian will have 2 base, -1 prof, -4 STR (through rage), -3 axe enchantment = -6 for the mainhand, and -4 for the off hand (assuming *** 2 weapon style)
It is therefore clear that the Beserker will hit the Barbarian with 19 out of 20 sides of the to-hit dice (due to critical misses, so 95% chance of hitting), since his THAC0 of -7/-5 will punch through the barbarians effective slashing AC of -6 with ease.
The Barbarian on the other hand, has a much harder time, with a THAC0 of -6/-4 vs an effective slashing AC of -12. This means that the Barbarian would need a minimum roll of 6 to hit the Berserker (so overall odds of hitting are 15/20 = 75%) for the mainhand, and a roll of 8 or higher from the offhand (65% chance of hitting).
Sooooooo:
After 4 rounds, the Berserker has had 14 attacks. Assuming 95% of these connect, there have effectively been 13 attacks. Each one dealing an average of 15.5 damage, amounting to 13*15.5=202 damage after 4 rounds. The Barbarian will shrug off 20% of this, so has taken around 162 damage. The Barbarian has 30 HP remaining.
As for the Barbarians assault.......he too has made 14 attacks, with 10 being from the mainhand and 4 from the offhand. 75% from the mainhand attacks are successful (8) and 65% from the offhand are successful (3). We have therefore got 11 successful attacks, each one hitting for an average of 19.5 damage, so 11*19.5=214.5 damage. The Berserker will die long before the end of the 4th round. In fact, after the first successful 9 hits. The Barbarian will still have 52HP by this point.
So, to summarise, armour has indeed made a significant difference, but the sheer magnitude of the damage bonuses provided through barbarian rage, coupled with the barbarians awesome ability to widthstand massive physical punishment has allowed him to prevail in this instance, although it has been a much closer call that the bout where armour class was negated. This was also assuming awesome equipment. If I had based the numbers using no enchanted armour (full plate + splint mail), the barbarian would have won by an even larger margin (since his AC was redundant anyway!).
I've not checked these numbers by the way, so they might be a little out, but I'll stand by my decision that a Barbarian would win this particaular conflict. [img]smile.gif[/img] .
EDIT: Needed to make a few corrections
[ 02-19-2003, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: Jim ]