For anyone who is an old school PnP gamer take a look at this "product" released for D20

http://www.warehouse23.com/item.cgi?GMG4310

IMHO this is what's wrong with tabletop RPGing today...there will always be munchkins but that's no excuse to encourage them :D Anyone out there think that player's can "win" a tabletop RPG? Personally, I think that PnP RPG's aren't about DM vs PC's, they are about DM and PC's telling a story TOGETHER. Thoughts/rants on this, are PnP RPG's going down the toilet? Are we witnessing the death-throes of this part of the hobby? I'm getting v'clemped...discuss [img]smile.gif[/img]

interesting.....I think

Well... There's no concern with an idiot like this screwing up a roleplaying group. A good DM would see right through a player with this sort of mentality and take steps to correct the problem. Easiest solution ever... "You find a genie lamp. The genie appears in a puff of smoke and grants you one wish." Then you proceed to screw the player. With great care. That, or you take them aside and suggest they're not looking for the same kind of game the others are.

There will always be powergamers. And ways to thwart them. And most importantly, there will always be ways to make money off of idiots.

i, personally, feel that powergaming is too easy with 3rd+ editions. right now we are trying out hackmaster, and altho it does feel like players against dm, it's really fun, and an interesting story.

when i clicked the link and started reading the description, i thought it was some kind of joke. man that's just sad. on so many levels.

i could make my own power-gaming machine (and have, as an exercise in DM cruelty for fun and profit) without a book. but i'm just so much more interested in making characters that are interesting, or should i say weird? like the barbarian who enjoys slaying orcs, then weaving wicker baskets to keep his trophy ear collection in.... my favorite is still the halfling fighter with full plate weilding two daggers. yes, nonmagical daggers. because it amuzes me.

but seriously, i hope the authors make a crapload of money with this, because some fools really do need to be parted from their money. and who knows, some day, any of us could be parting foolish rpg players from their money (so we can go buy foolish products for our own shelves!)

So did any of your players pick it up? What's the problem with such a book. If players want to play like that, why shouldn't they? Like any party has house rules or ideas on what you can do and what you can't. As long as those are clear is there a problem?

And like Illumina Drathiran'ar said, you can always make it less fun or impossible to let others play that way.

But isn't roleplaying a bit about freedom. And why would you limit that freedom by saying something you don't like should be gone. Don't misunderstand me, I roleplay but for people who like to play that way (and I don't see why you can't have fun in other ways than strict roleplaying).

Biggest shock for me is when my friend said he won a game against his DM. His whole perspctive on DnD was that he was supposed to kill the DM's avatar and the DM is supposed to kill the player's avatar. Roleplaying? He was killing NPCs left and right for fear of backstab or pickpocket! And the DM isn't even a bad one!
Anyway, the name says it all. "Just think, all these useful tips and suggestions in the hands of the guy who runs the monsters! Shudder." this book scares me.

Lol... the way we play the Story Guide (DM to you D&D types) is god. There is no 'beating' him, get all uber and you'll get yourself spanked down that much quicker. Gaming is about the story, not about hack and slash. I can just imagine what would happen if I took my Ars Flambeau (who IS fairly uber for that game, but I play him fairly passive, except for that pesky rage flaw ;) ) and started frying peasants... I'd be dead within the hour.

Last time I DM'd a D&D game (many years ago) I led a party of VERY uber characters against Lloth herself in her spider contraption on her plane of hell... they went all midaeval on her and were all giving eachother high fives when painfully discovered they'd just killed one of her illusions (she was VERY good at illusions)... at which point she kicked the living snot out of them, I think half the party got out alive :D . You don't go against Demi-gods unless you're crazy, and you don't go against the DM unless you have a deathwish.

[ 04-26-2005, 10:20 AM: Message edited by: Thoran ]

Well, I've run into a few bits of powergaming in my time as "Gamemaster" (my personal favorite title, as it belies the truth---that roleplaying IS a game, and I'm the one that has labored to make said game possible for my PCs). I don't worry too much about it, though---the characters often are given what they want, and then find themselves really no better off whatsoever.

For instance, in a Vampire: The Masquerade game, one of my PCs was jealous that another had obtained a special sword that caught animated beings (the living and the dead) on fire. This jealousy faded away quickly when the sword was actually USED by the other PC, because it promptly caught the werewolf on fire, and the character wielding the sword promptly fell to the ground in terror of the flames.

On of my friends GMs a lot, and has a good approach for such powergaming---he allows it, but the character is almost always rejected by the rest of the group as acting strange, and as such, is introduced to much harder situations. Sometimes, he tries to sneak back in with our group, and the alarms sound and we end up killing his new character (since we're roleplaying, it makes sense).

<font color=seafoam><font size=4>Overall, stuff like this just makes me wanna say that honestly, it's okay if your player character dies! It's a GAME, and sometimes, stories are better when they don't work out.</font></font>

[ 04-26-2005, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: Ilander ]

Different people play for different reasons. After reading the link, I fully expected to find another book on the wizard's guide to powergaming -- it seemed like it was addressed to those who think warriors are the be-all, end-all of gaming.

That said, in my book the DM is the controller of the game. You don't spring new things on the DM... I'd disallow them. Or make them fail in other ways (like igniting that werewolf :D ).

Bottom line is if someone's playing like that, and trying to beat the DM, they'll find themselves without someone to play with. Or they'll just find a hack-and-slash group to hack and slash with, and their gaming lives will be utterly boring.