<font color="#ffccff"> First let me say, that my reason for this thread is not to pee on anyones cheerios or to say anyone is stupid. I am making this thread because I hate to see people who are intelligent get swindled and scammed. I just want to suggest a few things for those of you who are true believers and skeptics alike.

1st, I suggest everyone watch Penn & Teller's new Showtime series titled "Bullshit!" yes that is the title of the series I kid you not.
They did an outstanding job of debunking these guys who go on tv and contact the dead for their audiences. They will be debunking other frauds and cons in future episodes of the series.

2nd, I reccomend this web site http://www.cfiwest.org/default.htm
these guys are out to get rid of hucksters and conmen.

3rd. Any time you find yourself believing a commercial psychic or speaker to the dead read some of P.T. Barnums writings, there is a lot to be gained from his revelations.

4th. Read up on the Amazing Randi, he was very very good at revealing the conmen for what they are (including Uri Geller).

Again I am not trying to run any one down, or insult anyone but there seems to be way too much belief in conmen and hucksters by people I consider to be rather intelligent.

I hope this is seen for the good intentions I ment it to convey.
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Nice one magick. Personally I've never seen any reason to believe in any of the things in the title of this thread but I've never really thought about it much either. Anyway, nice one cos exposing conmen is a good thing [img]smile.gif[/img]

I would also add "The secrets of shamanism" by Jose and Lena Stephens and the "Seth" books by Jane Roberts to the reading list.

If you are going to study the conmen you may as well study the real thing as well.

<font color="#ffccff"> Are those debunking books?
It seems that people would rather believe than be shown the truth a lot
of the time. The guys like John Edwards rake in millions from people willing to believe, but the people who prove them fakes scrape for funds to show the truth....I just don't get it...the people who send money to televangelists strike me as pretty much the same kind of personality as those who believe the likes of John Edwards. </font>

No, not debunking books. These books represent the other-side of the coin from the publicity seeking Hucksters and Con-men.

The secrets of shamanism explains shamanism for laymen and the Seth books are the chronicles of a channeler.

MagiK, one of the things I took away from Umberto Eco's marevellous book, Foucault's Pendulum, is that there are many people who just will not accept that there is no way for a mortal man or woman to influence his or her surroundings by pure will alone. In the imagination, you can make yourself rich, handsome, talented, married to the woman of your dreams with as many others as you want. How can there not be a way to make it so in the real world? This desire has been with humanity forever. It also has been the sworn enemy of any religion with any smatch of holiness in it. One of the things that Christianity and Islam can agree on is the detestaion of witches and sorcerers, as atttempting to usurp the will of the Almighty. These people are the modern decendants of these ancient charlatans. Consider the career of "Count Cagliostro."
EDIT- to add link

[ 01-25-2003, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: Attalus ]

<font color="#ffccff">Yeah I know what you are saying Attalus, it still seems so very strange tome that otherwise intelligent people can allow themselves to be swayed by snappy patter and smoothe delivery :(

Oh well I have done my duty to try and help people to see the truth, guess I'll just let it go. </font>

"Wizards First Rule: People are stupid..."
- Terry Goodkind

Thanks for the link magik
I've often read the Australian skeptic magazine with intrest, people after my own heart! Trouble is every time I decide I'm agnostic I see something as simply beautifull as Cerik the barbarians sig and turmoil begins again.....

[img]graemlins/confused3.gif[/img]

As Mulder's poster reads, "i want to belive". But it just all seems so wrong.

<font color="#ffccff">Wellard, the stuff Im talkin about are people who debunk scam artists claiming to have some super power or second sight. These people are not out there to take down religion, since most religions are faith based and faith cannot be proven wrong, where as bastards like John Edwards can be proved to be frauds.

I highly highly reccomend Penn and Tellers show [img]smile.gif[/img] aside from being funny as all getout, they are very good at what they do in it. </font>

[ 01-25-2003, 07:02 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]