What if Omsa Bin Laden seeks political asylum in Europe?

Scenario:
Supposing Osma Bin Laden somehow manages to board an international flight and arrives at London Heathrow airport. He immediately hands himself over to the immigration officials and claims political asylum...

Issues raised:
Can he be handed over the US government for trial?
In a word, NO. The European Convention on Human Rights expressely forbids handing over *anyone* (no matter what they are suspected of having done) to another power if:

a) A civilian is to be tried in a military court
Bush just signed a law into effect allowing foreign 'terrorists' to be tried in military courts - this is contrary to European law and the extradition would be held up until the recieving power agreed to hold the trial in a civilian court.

b) The person would receive 'an unusual or cruel punishment'
This would include the Death penalty or incarceration without hope of release/parole. So again, the recieving country would have to make an undertaking that neither the death penalty would be applied and that he would be seriously considered for parole within 25 years.

c) The person would receive a fair and impartial trial
Ouch! The real sticking point. Osma Bin Laden could never receive a fair trial in the US. He has been villified, tried and convicted by the press for both the Embassy bombings and the September 11th attacks. Senior politicians on both sides of the Atlantic have publicly claimed his guilt... Almost everyone in the west believes that he is guilty without having seen the evidence for themselves.
It would be impossible to find an unbiased US jury. It can equally be said that virtually every US citizen considers themsevles to be victims of the attack. Would it be fair to send someone to trial with a jury made up of the victims?

And if Britain (or any other European country) just handed him over to the US anyway? Well, apart from stomping all over the principles of the European Convention on Human Rights, we would have succeeded in becoming just like those guys that sent those planes into the WTC... And the Muslim countries would view *that* as symbol of 'western hypocrisy' and they would consider a trial in the US to be a 'show trial'. And Osma Bin Laden would gain martyr status...


If the US had agreed to sign in to the concept of an 'International court for civilian criminals' when it was being discussed (not so long ago), this dillema would not exist. Let's hope that the Bush administration has a change of heart on this issue or that Osma Bin Laden dies at the hands of the Northern Alliance (Not NATO!). Anything else will increase terrorism tenfold...

Oh BELIEVE me, we would get him... [img]graemlins/firedevil.gif[/img]


[img]graemlins/tank.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/tomcat.gif[/img]

[ 11-15-2001: Message edited by: Ziroc ]</p>

That's what I think. What worries me is that, in our haste to apprehend/kill him, we trample on the very values we are supposed to be defending...

Just because he asks for political asylum doesn't mean he'll get it. Who would give him asylum? That act alone would trample what is suppose to be "good".

Since he is the leader of a military style organization would anyone really expect him to be treated as a civilian? I don't think he should be tried in a US court anyway, if captured alive, he should be tried before an international court. He really likes killing Americans, but Americans aren't the only people he kills nor or we the only ones he threatens.

No matter what you want to say about Bin Laden, the man has a fiendish intelligence. Last night my friends and I were discussing the scenario where Bin Laden manages to escape Afghanistan, but not to Europe, but to somewhere in the Middle East. Now lets say he shows up in the custody of a government in say Sudan, Libya, or Iraq. How difficult would it be to get him out using diplomatic measures? and how long would those diplomatic measures take? How difficult would it be to keep an international coalition together to militarily extricate him? It poses quite a complicated scenario, and not altogether unlikely.

I guess you missed my one of my posts. The world fears Bush... they would hand him in regardless if it's right to do so or not. Plus, there's nothing that prevents Bin Ladden from receiving an unfair and partial trial in Britain (or anyother western country) so he could also be tried there.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Ryanamur:
I guess you missed my one of my posts. The world fears Bush... they would hand him in regardless if it's right to do so or not. Plus, there's nothing that prevents Bin Ladden from receiving an unfair and partial trial in Britain (or anyother western country) so he could also be tried there.<hr></blockquote>

Bush doesn't have anymore power than Clinton did, or his father before him! Europe does not fear him. They don't think he's ready to roll into their countries?!?!? Is your point the only reason most of the world supports the actions in Afghanistan because they "fear" Bush? There are those who attack America that should not fear Bush, but US. He's the leader of the nation, but to imply he runs it with an iron hand to serve his own end isn't realistic.


There is nothing wrong with Bin Laden being tried in Berlin, or even Amsterdam, as long as it's an international trial. I don't want him tried in the US.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:


Bush doesn't have anymore power than Clinton did, or his father before him! Europe does not fear him. They don't think he's ready to roll into their countries?!?!? Is your point the only reason most of the world supports the actions in Afghanistan because they "fear" Bush? There are those who attack America that should not fear Bush, but US. He's the leader of the nation, but to imply he runs it with an iron hand to serve his own end isn't realistic.


There is nothing wrong with Bin Laden being tried in Berlin, or even Amsterdam, as long as it's an international trial. I don't want him tried in the US.<hr></blockquote>

Ronn, I could respond with an analogy to recent history that would upset MANY just to prove my point... so, rather than starting a big war of words, I'll just say that you're right, he doesn't rule with an iron hand... I'm just saying the guy is like a black hole wether you want to get close or get away, you'll eventually be sucked in and be destroyed! One thing I can say for Bush Jr is that he was intelligent enough to surround himself with intelligent advisors!

Personnally, I don't think that Bin Ladden should be brought to trial. Regardless of where he is tried (USA/Europe/International Court or Muslim court), the trial will not be impartial! A trial is truly the worst thing that we could do to ourself in this mess that we've created!

I said before that we should just send in special forces to assassinate him that would have been a much smarter course of action and much more effective than what we've been doing so far! But let's let the public to their delusions of effectiveness!

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Ryanamur:
Personnally, I don't think that Bin Ladden should be brought to trial. Regardless of where he is tried (USA/Europe/International Court or Muslim court), the trial will not be impartial!

I said before that we should just send in special forces to assassinate him that would have been a much smarter course of action and much more effective than what we've been doing so far! But let's let the public to their delusions of effectiveness!<hr></blockquote>

A trial probably would be a disaster. I never said I want one, but if it comes to that I don't want it here for the reasons you mention.

Assasination sounds simple, but it only removes the man, and he alone isn't the problem, it's his network and those like him, hence the war on terrorism. Special Forces to handle the problem quick and easy sounds good, but it just wouldn't have worked. You can't insert a small team(s) into a hostile country the size of Afghanistan and expect results. There are teams to operate behind enemy lines, but not that far behind them, and not alone. Special Forces got the 8 relief workers out, but couldn't be expected to bring down an entire terrorist network.

Okay...here is my take on trials and such. I feel that he (Osama Bin Laden) should be executed. (alot) I felt the same way about the Nuremberg trial too. I look at trials for people who commit crimes against humanity as rubbing salt in society's wounds.

Regarding asylum in an European country, I would be quite upset if I knew that he could sucessfully do that. His organization did not just do a crime against the U.S. I call it a crime against humanity not because I give into jingoistic sayings. I literally believe that what happened on September 11th affected many more people than just the U.S.