http://www.unc.edu/~kurzman/terror.htm

This relates to several debates we've had in CE which have touched upon the perceived lack of condemnation on the part of Muslim's when terrorist attacks take place against Western countries. I just stumbled across this list of quotes, and it includes people like Abdulaziz bin ‘Abdallah Al-Ashaykh, who is the Chief Mufti of Saudi Arabia as well as other world and spiritual leaders.

A few choice quotes are below, but the whole list is worth a skim, if only because it's so large and surprising in both the cross-section of people and the authority they carry.

Also, it brought to mind a documentary on Iran I watched, and on the day of the September 11th attacks, the masses spilled out onto the Tehran streets chanting slogans. What they were chanting was not 'down with Bush' or 'down with America' but 'down with terrorism.'

Food for thought hopefully...

[ 11-02-2004, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
too few too late and utterly lacking in any action backing up the words. Actions, not words are what is needed, though the words would be a nice change in rags like Al-Jazeera.
</font>

And what actions would you suggest these peaceful religious leaders take against the violent fanatics in their own religion? They certainly are not capable of any meaningful sanctions - religious-based condemnation can only go so far.

Most Muslims I know are as far away from the Islamic terrorist type as your average Protestant is from a Neo-Nazi spouting "religious" justifications for white supremacy.

<font color = lightgreen>Quite right. Islam is fundamentally a peace-loving religion; the average Muslim isn't really any different than the average Christian. I have attended religious ceremonies at a mosque before so I can assure the average Westerner that Islam isn't what you see on the nightly news. The point about Aryan Nation neo-Nazis claiming to be Christians is perfect--all religions have zealots (with the possible exception of Zen Buddhists--have you ever known a fanatic Zen Buddhist?).</font>

Yeah...Phill Jackson, he's a maniac. :D

yes, during war period in Japan in 16 century. Groups of fanatical zen buddhist rise up and had bitter battles with Oda Nobunaga troops.

yes, during war period in Japan in 16 century. Groups of fanatical zen buddhist rise up and had bitter battles with Oda Nobunaga troops. </font>[/QUOTE]Erm.... dude, that's 500 years ago, back in those days us Catholics burned heretics and witches at the stake. I'd like to believe we have a little evolved since then, and so did the Buddhists. ;)

Well, except for Phill of course. :D

Excuse the possibly silly question, but are you a Muslim? Or were you just attending ceremonies for curiosity and to observe? It's something I've wanted to do (in the same way you can wander into a church for example) but I find the mosque far more intimidating and therefore have never ventured. If you got a welcome and you're not a Muslim, maybe I shall pluck up the courage.

[ 11-03-2004, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
Whether Islam is a religion of peace or not is rather debatable...it's hsitory is evenmore bloody and brutal than that of the christians. (History Channel had a great show covering Islam last night as a matter of fact)

Be that as it may, you ask what can the "peacful" religious leaders do? they can encourage their congregations to stop the madmen, the faithful of Islam should be ont he front lines dying with the Infidel Americans and British and others to stop the so called "People who pervert the peaceful religion of Islam"....and not finding ways to hide the islamofacists in their towns and churches...oh and they might try preaching something other than the death of all Jews.....that would probably help.

I might add that we have quite a large Islamic community here in the Washington DC region....they are reletively peacful, unless you talk to them about Jews....or about how to stop the madmen spreading terror in Islams name...</font>

[ 11-03-2004, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

Agreed, it certainly has a bloody history, but that's largely because if Muhammed hadn't raised a makeshift army sharpish their band would have been hunted down and killed for their beliefs.

I have to take issue with one point of yours regarding the action they should take:
Surely you're not suggesting they should have signed up to the war on Iraq for this privelege? Where else would they have the opportunity to do this if I've misunderstood you?

I would also suggest that it is Muslims who are on the front line and dying because of these madmen. I would hazard a guess that a good 80% of Islamic terrorist attacks kill exclusively or mainly Muslims. Witness the latest explosion outside a Sunni mosque yesterday for example...

As for the wider question, I've read both accusative and apologist literature on the issue of Islam being inherently violent and I'm still utterly undecided. For every example of a Muslim that would 'conform' to Western views on civilization I should imagine there is one who doesn't.

The question is, should we impose our culture on them, even if we believe that theirs is morally wrong? I'll always remember the Muslim woman clad in the hijab who asked "have you ever asked a Muslim woman if she's opressed?"

Just a brief foray into the Israeli-Arab conflict to respond to your point about that: Muslim's saying that they want to kill Jews is not much different from some of the Jewish writings and ideologies at the time of the first Arab-Israeli conflict. Ben-Gurion's diary springs to mind for example. Definitely Muslims do not have a monopoly on hatred in that region, and you will likely find voices on both sides that would gladly wish the other dead. For each of them, I would imagine there would be ten more who just want the violence to stop and to leave in peace.

[ 11-03-2004, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]