damn, i just fought my way through all the underdark and drow city, and i cant leave here without saying that it has to be the most boring part ive ever encountered...... my eyes hurt of seeing the same screen over and over and over, i enjoyed the pit fights tho [img]smile.gif[/img] ...

Really? I thought it was the most beautiful place in the game, myself. All the dark patterns on the streets, the petaled towers, the elaborate prisons really blew me away. I did think they underpowered them though. The level most folks go in there at, combat ain't too difficult.

Unfortunantly the nice armours i got there will probably be disintegrated... :\ (havent gone above ground yet ;D just stopped playing...) well it wasnt really difficult either, but fighting the lich and the 'run like hell' part where quite difficult... (my party was fatigued due to haste spells when i had to 'run like hell')

Well i reckon that the Drow city is Nuthin compared 2 Suldanessalar..... They really should have made Suldanessalar bigger.... that would b cool [img]smile.gif[/img]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mourn Yauntyyr:
I did think they underpowered them though. The level most folks go in there at, combat ain't too difficult.<hr></blockquote>

How very interesting. I've always thought that drow were terribly overrated....

No i agree with Mourn... the Drow were not as powerful as they should have been... same with the Elves.... if you get a decent amount of XP you can take down all of the cities drow without much trouble... even though Adalon tells you that they are "impossible odds"... and the elves that are fighting the Monsters in Suldannesalar are also very weak... three trolls tear apart 5 elves if you dont help them.... thats just wrong :(

Well, I think the Drow in the city were realistic, but that they were not tailored (at least in my case) for the BG II party that they were going to be facing.

However, if you think the Drow are overrated, consider again from the perspective of the average human community. Let's compare a human town of 5,000 and a Drow town of 5,000. In the human city, AT MOST only 5% of the population will be 1st level, and then most likely fighters, perhaps with a few clerics, paladins or rangers. 1% of the population will be expectional - above 1st level. That gives us 250 regulars and 50 elite troops (which would include high level Mages, Clerics, and Fighter-types). They could be augmented by their entire male population of fighting age, or roughly 35% of their total population - so that gives the human town an additional 800 0-level fighters with 4 hp each, and no training with weapons. So the human town, if severely pressed, can field roughly 1100 troops of differing quality.

However, in Drow society everyone must be able to fight - and well. At MINIMUM a Drow would be a 2nd level fighter (or some other class) or they would not have survived the treachery and trials of Drow life. They would be wearing chain +1, wielding 2 weapons (ambidextrously) that would also be +1 each. He/she would be specialized in one of those weapons, and would use a hand crossbow +1 firing bolts +1. All weapons would be coated in sleep poison. Their magic resistance will be 50% or higher. All Drow innately cast levitate and darkness once per day, and are trained to use these spells to maximum advantage. Drow cavalry will be mounted on giant lizards that would charge through densely packed infantry with ease, and will put the heaviest of human cavalry to rout. Also, EVERY Drow (accepting children) in a city can fight. This means that while a human city can really only draw about 20% of its population for battle, a Drow city can draw 90%. So the 1100 humans above would be facing 4500 Drow of better training, possessing better quality weapons, and supported by a greater percentage mages and clerics. They would also have a veritable horde of slave cannon-fodder. (Menzoberranzan, a city of 10,000 could draw well over 100,000 goblinoid slaves.)

If you are basing your comment after your experience in playing BGII, I can assure you that you thought the Drow were "overrated" because your own party was so powerful. Indeed, the level of characters played in BGII are beyond the level most characters EVER reach, and would be considered legendary heroes (on the level of Heracles, Achilles, Cuchulainn, Siegfried, King Arthur, etc).

There are reasons behind why surface races hate and fear the Drow so much. I say without a doubt in my mind that the Drow are the most powerful humanoid race in the AD&D game, perhaps closely followed by the Githyanki. If you doubt it, I am hosting an all-Drow server when Neverwinter Nights comes out. If you get the game, I welcome you to build a party of the best characters you can assemble and visit my city. My 50 players will give you a welcome that will quell any doubts you may have.

BTW, this is all straight out of the hardback 1st & 2nd ed books, so feel free to check my sources.

L'elamshin d'lil Ilythiiri zhah ulu har'luth jal!
(Drow proverb meaning "The destiny of the Drow is to conquer all")
Mourn Yauntyyr
Elderboy, Qu'ellar Yauntyyr
The City of Tzach Neveril

Cool stats Mourn.... but seriously the Elven Community would probably be stronger..... with their crafstmanship and MAgic superiority they are supposodly stronger.

Wat I think u missed in your calculations is that many Drow are killed for being weak... so their population is much smaller. So when you compare a 5000 population Drow city it is comparred to a 50000 population human city, taking you 35% for human and 90% for Drow that leavesabout a 4500 Drow army, who are all better trained vs. a 17500 strong human army who are much weaker individually, that makes 3 humans vs each drow and occasionally it would be 4 humans vs 1 Drow. No im betting on the human army [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

Well, if you Drow enthusiasts feel that paranoia, megalomania, hatefulness, pettiness, and general personality problems are somehow desirable then that is not my problem. If the drow were truly capable of, and destined to, conquer the world then they would have by now. I, for one, neither hate nor fear the Drow; when I think of them at all it is with pity for those who limit themselves.

That is about as flaming as my personality gets.

Valid points in both posts. Mainly I wanted to make the point that the Drow are not overrated - they are potentially one of the most dangerous threats to any world they exist on.

The Drow are weaker, *on the whole* than surface races because of their constant infighting. But that infighting makes them a finely tempered weapon, one that took the combined forces of all Elvendom and all the human nations to force them underground. I don't think the Elven nations are tougher, one-on-one. Though I certainly have a healthy respect for suface elves: their archery is devastating, their guerilla tactics are second to none, and their wizardry is excellent. If the Drow fought them on the surface, I think the Elves would be at an advantage. But in the Underdark, the elves would have very serious problems dealing with the three dimensional nature of combat, the darkness and the might of the Drow in their own element.

When comparing troop strengths, keep in mind my last point in my third paragraph in the post above - the Drow have incredible access to slave cannon fodder. Drow birth rate and their infighting keeps their numbers low, but their elite troops (the Drow themselves) would be more effective than anything a human or elven force could deal with, unless it could greatly outnumber them and counter their masses of slave soldiers.

And you're right Azred, the Drow never really will conquer all, but they like to think they will. [img]smile.gif[/img] If they tried to mount a major campaign on a surface nation, they would quickly find that the devisive politics of the surface nations would be set aside for a common alliance. The general feel would be something like when Hitler invaded Russia in 1941; all past grudges would be set aside to combat a common foe.

That is why most of my Drow characters are Vhaeraun worshippers. Vhaeraun supports a policy of Drow unity contrary to Lloth's policy of continuing the current societal norms for her own amusement. Were Vhaeraun ever to succeed Lloth (granted this is highly unlikely), the Drow probably would conquer the entire Underdark. But they would recognize that fighting a prolonged campaign on the surface they would be at an incredible disadvantage in numbers and because of the light factor, and thus would set up trade agreements with the surface.

My point in these posts was not to engender any hard feelings, but I was incredulous when Azred said that the Drow are overrated. I've played them to a fair degree in AD&D Battlesystem where I've seen their armies absolutely devastate enemy forces. However winning the tactical fight (the battle) and winning the strategic fight (the war) are two very different things.

Vhaeraun zhaunil alurl!
(Drow proverb meaning "Vhaeraun knows best")
Mourn Yauntyyr
Elderboy, Qu'ellar Yauntyyr
The City of Tzach Neveril